Marozzo on Axes: Finally there is Source Material!

[Grant Hall]

[EDIT] Greetings, please note this thread was originally tittled "Axes: Shapes, Sizes and Study-Material" and the original thread is contained in the first post.

However, since discovering that Morozzo and Silver both group the Battle Axe with the Black Bill and Halberd, both in their size/weight and in their use, I decided to open this thread up to discussion on Source Material for Halberds, Bills and Axes for those interested in learning how they are used and how they relate to one another.

The Original Post is given below, please see my 2nd and 3rd post for more information on the "New Thread" thanks.[/EDIT]

Greetings.

I was wondering as to what kind of source material there is regarding the use of axes in warfare, and if they were ever used in duels?

I would like to start trainging with an axe (for a different feel, and something new), but was wondering if there is enough study material.

Also, I was wondering, just what exactly the axes of the renaisance were like, as the only axe I am familliatr with is the Danish Axe. Were there really double bladed axes? Like so: (>I<) or were these simply inventions of fantasy.

Any and all help is appreciated, thanks in advance!

God Bless!

[Grant Hall]

Ok, so I did some searching of the Forums (only discovereede Search Function tonight ), and I am content that to get a historicaly accurate understanding of the axe, one should learn to fight with a Halberd and a Bill (as well as any actual axe techniques found in the texts).

So I ask, which are the best (read: easiest to understand and use) fechtbuchs dealing with Halberds and Bills? (I have dealt with some of Meyer's longsword material and found it well written and illustrated, and rather easy understand, so I wonder does he deal with the Halberd and Bill?).

God Bless & Thanks in advance!

[Martin_Wilkinson]

Don't forget the medieval Pole Axe. Dealt with by Fiore, Vadi, La Jue De La Hache, and many others.

[Grant Hall]

Hmm, see I'm not entirely convinced that Poleaxe can translate directly to axe. (EDIT: On further research it seems that the Pollaxe fits both the Height and Weight catergory and thus is probably one of the weapons unnamed by Silver though still grouped with Axe, Bill, and Halberd. However, it is still not named by Marozzo and so we can not know for sure that what is taught about Pollaxes are intended to be used by Bills, Halberds and Battle Axes. Ofcourse there might be another source grouping them together as one, but I have not found it yet).

Note: I have not begun to study Axe, Bill, Halberd or Poleaxe in earnest, however I am led to believe by George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense that the Poleaxe is not directly grouped with the Axe, Bill and Halberd.

Of the lengths of the battle axe, halberd, or black bill, or such like weapons of weight, appertaining unto guard or battle...

Also:

The battle axe, the halberd, the black-bill, or such like weapons of weight, appertaining unto guard or battle, are all one in fight, and have advantage against the two handed sword, the sword and buckler, the sword and target, the sword and dagger, or the rapier and poniard...

Note they are once again grouped together. Infact all throughout his Paradoxes of Defense, the Battle Axe, Black Bill and Halberd are grouped together.

See Also: Marozzo.

As Marozzo says "...note that all these three sorts of weapons [bill, halberd, and axe] are one and the same in play...."

All this leads me to believe that the Battle Axe is used in the same fashion as the Black Bill and Halberd, and thus training with one is effectively training with all three.

Note: Silver mentions that all three, Black Bill, Halberd, and Battle axe should range in length from 5ft. to 6ft. another indicator that they are similar if not identicle in use. He also mentions they are of the same weight, and I think mentions they are weighted similar.

This tells me that all info on the Halberd and Bill is also supposed to be used for the Battle Axe. Thus we can train in earnest, knowing that the techniques we are using with our axes (adapted from the teachings on halberd and bill) are indeed authentic.

So I ask again, what in the communities opinion are the best manuals regarding the uses of Axes, Bills, and Halberds?

God Bless and Thanks in Advance!

[Brian Hunt]

Paulus Hector Mair has a nice section on polearms. David Knight and my translation is supposed to be out from Paladin in early 2008. It has pole axe (what Mair terms a Murder Axe), he also has halberd, plus two different length of staffs that can readily be used as spears as well as staves.

for a little more info please see the hyper link at the bottom of my sig.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Grant Hall]

Yes indeed, I have already sniffed out the upcoming translation and must admit I am wrought (is that the right word?) with anticipation!

Murder Axe hey? I like that Lol!

Could you perhaps hint at how large the book is, and how much is dedicated to Halberd and "Murder Axe" specifically?

Thankyou and God Bless!

[Ken Dietiker]

Hey Grant,

I know I might be reaching here, but I just wanted to clarify something. When you speak of "axe", are you reffering to the pole arm type as is found in many treatises, or the shorter, single handed type that we have much historical evidence of in museums but not necessarily in the manuals? Silver's Paradoxes I'm certain is referring to the longer, two handed type (as similarly weighted to halberd and spear, etc.), as does pretty much everything else. I do not believe there are any historical manuals that even mention the single handed type, much less show instruction on how to put one into play. Certainly many of the historical axes are believed to be throwing instruments primarily, but used as a fighting tool may be a different monkey altogether.

I guess the question would be then, if the shorter version is the one you eventually had in mind, how can we learn to use such a weapon in historical weapons play without learning from historical manuals?

Ken

[Grant Hall]

Hey Ken,

A good question, it is not entirely clear to which "axe" Marozzo is refering to (especially since I have not had a chance to look at a translation of the orginal), however the axe that Silver puts in the same group as the Black Bill and the Halberd is the Battle Axe.

Infact after studying Silver a little more, I have discovered that he also states directly that the Battle Axe, Black Bill and Halberd are to be used the same. Here is the quote:

The battle axe, the halberd, the black-bill, or such like weapons of weight, appertaining unto guard or battle, are all one in fight

Empasis Mine.

He also goes on to say the following:

And finally for the just lengths of all other shorter or longer weapons to be governed with both hands, there is none

Empasis mine.

Notice the bolded text "all others" this implies that the above Battle Axe is meant to be governed by two hands.

I hope this helps.

So does anybody have any thoughts?

God Bless!

[Stacy Clifford]

You'll definitely want this on your reading list:

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/lejeudelahache.htm

[Grant Hall]

Thanks, that should keep me busy till Dave and Bryan's book comes out.

Thanks again, and God Bless!

[steve hick]

Thanks, that should keep me busy till Dave and Bryan's book comes out.

Thanks again, and God Bless!

Monte has a section on the (pole) axe as well, there is a translation of it by Tom Leoni floating around somewhere.
Steve

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Note: I have not begun to study Axe, Bill, Halberd or Poleaxe in earnest, however I am led to believe by George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense that the Poleaxe is not directly grouped with the Axe, Bill and Halberd.

Wrong; the "Battle axe" in Silver's text is the poleaxe. If you take a closer look at other medieval and Renaissance texts about martial arts and warfare (especially the memoirs of notable soldiers and chronicles of major wars), you'll notice that the word "battleaxe" or its equivalents (Streitaxt, hache du combat, etc.) are repeatedly used in contexts that suggest the meaning of "poleaxe."

[Mike Cartier]

Meyer does indeed have Halberd, his polearms sections starts with staff/spear and then goes on to Halberd and then Pike.

His halberd material is distinct it its cenceptual presentation, thee is nthing i have seen more comprehensive on the halberd.

In our group we have a Halberd specialist in Kevin Maurer (SA) he works pretty closely wirt hthe material and even translates the German himself in some cases.

Definatly start with the staff/spear and then once you have the basics under your belt hit the Halberd, its all about POWER, DECEPTION and TECHNIQUE