leather armor?

[Adam Bodorics]

Well, I could easily pierce it... <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
It was on a stuffed, hanging bag, and was made with rather strong rivets, 2mm thick wire for the links. The sword was tapering only a bit. With the point, I could open it with relative ease, with the edge, I had a harder time, but I've succeded, and it opened almost like flesh with halfswording.

I agree with you - mail helps. But plate absorbs. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> My pseudo-krug was usable without padding the plate components - I felt only a little sting even from a full-force twohanded cut to my belly. We've even played with the armoured one stepping into the attack to give it even more power... But the mail parts let through even small thrusts.
And my musculata needs padding only at the shoulders...

After all, soft defenses are inferior if we talk only about their attack-stopping ability, and mail is almost the most inferior. The lowest is of course civilian clothing, unhardened leather, and butted mail. But of course, you don't block with your armour, just as you don't block with your edge, if you have any other chance.

[Brian Hunt]

Adam,

who made the mail you were cutting on? Was it made with round rivets like the cheap indian mail? Or was it properly made with flattened rings and triangular rivets? Was it also backed with a properly made gambeson? It does make a difference.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Adam Bodorics]

I'm an armouer, so I made it... I used wedge rivets... and I used a simple, hanging (so unsupported), stuffed bag. Better than a supported gambeson... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
And of course, I used a dopplehander... <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> I haven't ever tried out the same with a longsword, or with a single-handed sword.

[DaveSmith]

This thread is getting pretty interesting. Still looking for suggestions on the best combination of light,fast armor while still presenting an even amount of protection. So keep this discussion going, but throw in some suggestions along the way...lol.

~Dave

[Erik D. Schmid]

Do you have pictures of the mail used? Can you give us more specifics on it? What type of period mail was it patterned after?

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Adam,

what gage wire did you start with? 18 gage or 16 gage? Did you anneal the wire at any point in the construction of your mail? Did you flatten the whole ring, or just the overlap? Part of the reason I am asking, is I am also an armourer that makes both mail and plate, so I am interested in your results and why they came about the way they did.

Thanks

Brian Hunt.
GFS

[Adam Bodorics]

2mm is, I think, 14 gauge... but I'm not sure.
I've flattened the whole link hot, and let it cool down - dunno if it passes for annealing.
I don't really make mail, just for my sweet mail&amp;plate... and for that, even that would've been enough.
Do you have pictures of your work? I'm always interested in fine stuff... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Soon I'll make a mameluk kit, with the baydana as well - now, THAT kind of mail absorbs shock... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

I have to say, with due respect, your experience with mail being easy to cut does not match what I have read from most of (several dozen) other sources, and most other test cutting experiments I know of both official and amateur, including some that I've personally witnessed, and some video clips posted to this site.

From everything I have seen properly made riveted mail is quite diffcult to pierce, and almost impossible to cut.

I'm not questioning your experiences, I only want to point out that test results seem to differ rather wildly. There is some factor here we seem to be missing.

Jr

[Adam Bodorics]

Oi!
You've slipped over an important part... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> I've said that I've pierced it with two hands on the hilt with the point, pierced it VERY easily with halfswording using the point, and I've had a harder time with the edge, but I've succeded... this means that it's not easy to cut, but possible. Of course, most likely I won't have the chance to make such a strong cut in a real combat situation, but even the 80% of such a cut would almost surely break the opponent's bones, even with padding. But a simple leather vambrace would absorb so much energy that the mail and the padding would likely protect the victim.
And one more thing, that I've thought of only yesterday... mail offers no glancing surface but rather, it helps the sword to "stick" in some situations, especially with thrusts, while even good leather provides some.
Oh, and again: I used cuts so strong that, most likely, I wouldn't be able to use in fight. Against a good opponent, the result would've been rather different... but the main thing is that that anyone under these buffel cuts of mine would be maimed in mail, and would be hurt a little bit in plate. If they hit. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> But nowadays, I hit more and more surely, stronger and stronger. [wicked]

[JeanryChandler]

Hi Adam,

I understood your point, I believe. I'm just pointing out that other people have done the same tests with quite different results. Why, I don't know. But I have seen some myself. In fact I've both cut (sliced) and thrust through some pretty thick (4mm?) cow leather I have fairly easily with a rather cheap stainless steel replica pugio which can't even scratch the small sample of riveted mail armor that I bought last year.

You may want to keep in mind that mail was usually worn with a padded gambeson, and these were also apparently better protection than most folks realise, though of course, that did not preclude injuries, even lacerations, from occuring through the mail and gambeson even if the latter did not get damaged.

Jr

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Adam,

the fact that you heated your rings and then flatened them may have something to do with the difference in hardness. The common way to do this is to wind and cut your rings, then heat them to cherry red and let them cool to anneal or soften them. Then you cold flatten your rings. This work hardens them when your flatten them cold. Then peirce then rivet.

just some thoughts on why you may have had a different result.

Brian Hunt
GFS