Calling any samurai?

[Will Adamson]

Fighting is chaos so we must get as close to it as possible to get true skills.

So that's why JC moved to Atlanta.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

you seem to have a strange distinction between sparring and fighting.

Well when I go sparring I expect that I'll go through it and still be in a reasonably good shape. Similarly, I do not intend to cause real harm to my opponent (or rather partner in this case).

If I were going to fight (never happened so far, may it last long), I'd expect quite the opposite, possibly die in the process, and I'd intend to cause as much suffering to my opponent as I might endure myself.

Does the distinction really seem so strange? I mean I can try to act during sparring as I'd do during a fight, much like I can practice katas with intent, but fundamentally there must be a difference between training and fighting, especially with the overwhelming damage potential of even training weapons...

Why does it surprise you that men who might be called on to use thier sword arts in defense of thier lives might actually wish to test thier skills before being put into combat.

What surprises me is not to find any stronger evidence of it, if it happened in the form of sparring. That and the fact that what little I found is far removed from sparring without rules.

[RayMcCullough]

"Tai chi is considered a martial art even if a practitioner never spars. So is qi gong and other esoteric practices because these arts are part of a larger world of the martial arts - which once included religion and magic. So to narrow the definition of martial arts to: true equals free sparring, therefore no free sparring equals untrue is, I think to impoverish the martial arts."

Religion and magic are not Martial Arts. While they may be part of some schools curriculum, they are not Fighting Skills. The larger "world of Martial Arts "has expanded the definition of Martial Arts. The original meaning of Martial Arts is literally Fighting/Military Skills aquired by experience, study, and observation; a branch/or discipline of military learning. Without out experience fighting/sparring, can you learn the Art. Look at the Arcahic definition of Art. The one from the 13th century. Don't be fooled in to thinking that it is Art as in self expression represented in the creation of Aestetic objects. That would be the wrong definition.
I just watched the video. If they had moved any slower they would have fallen down. That might be a good speed at the very begining of learning, but after about a week the tempo should be at or very near full speed and attacks should always be directed at the opponent with intent to hit.

Mike is right. Effective training will always include some form of mock combat/sparring/fighting that is as close to a real fight as possible. The warriors of the past did it and the modern Militarys strive for that today.

[Margaret Lo]

Religion and magic are not Martial Arts. While they may be part of some schools curriculum, they are not Fighting Skills. The larger "world of Martial Arts "has expanded the definition of Martial Arts. The original meaning of Martial Arts is literally Fighting/Military Skills aquired by experience, study, and observation; a branch/or discipline of military learning. ..

That is just wrong. First, there is no argument that historical context replaces technique. My point is that technique can only be fully understood with a touch of context. For example, every kata in goju ryu begins with a folding of hands into an open palmed position which signifies a lowering of qi from upper tanden to lower tanden. That obviously comes from qi gong practice. Shaolin forms begin or end with a hand in prayer position. Religion dare I say? In WMA, who were the Knights Templar but priests I believe?

I just watched the video. If they had moved any slower they would have fallen down. That might be a good speed at the very begining of learning, but after about a week the tempo should be at or very near full speed and attacks should always be directed at the opponent with intent to hit.
.

Uh, I don't know if you noticed but the old man looked to me like he was pushing 80. Pretty good for his age. Anyhow, this demo was clearly not intended for the purpose of impressing anyone with athleticism given his age. There is another vid on this thread that shows fast technique. What is interesting here is that a very old sword master is demonstrating the curriculum of his school.


M

[RayMcCullough]

You missed the point. Religion and magic are not Martial Arts. While they are present in some(if not all) Fighting Systems, they are not Martial Arts. Religion has influenced all M.A.'s, East and West, but religion is a motivater and moral guide not Fighting Skills/Martial Art.

Martial Arts=Fighting Skills=Military Skills=Military Learning

"My point is that technique can only be fully understood with a touch of context."

What context? The Context,setting, in training should be one closest to the realities of a real fight. Saying a prayer before going into battle is religion. The carnage that comes in the battle is Martial Arts.

"For example, every kata in goju ryu begins with a folding of hands into an open palmed position which signifies a lowering of qi from upper tanden to lower tanden. That obviously comes from qi gong practice. Shaolin forms begin or end with a hand in prayer position. Religion dare I say?"

Yes! Exactly! Religion. Not Martial Arts.

[Gene Tausk]

Religion and magic are not Martial Arts. While they may be part of some schools curriculum, they are not Fighting Skills. The larger "world of Martial Arts "has expanded the definition of Martial Arts. The original meaning of Martial Arts is literally Fighting/Military Skills aquired by experience, study, and observation; a branch/or discipline of military learning. ..

That is just wrong. First, there is no argument that historical context replaces technique. My point is that technique can only be fully understood with a touch of context. For example, every kata in goju ryu begins with a folding of hands into an open palmed position which signifies a lowering of qi from upper tanden to lower tanden. That obviously comes from qi gong practice. Shaolin forms begin or end with a hand in prayer position. Religion dare I say? In WMA, who were the Knights Templar but priests I believe?

I just watched the video. If they had moved any slower they would have fallen down. That might be a good speed at the very begining of learning, but after about a week the tempo should be at or very near full speed and attacks should always be directed at the opponent with intent to hit.
.

Uh, I don't know if you noticed but the old man looked to me like he was pushing 80. Pretty good for his age. Anyhow, this demo was clearly not intended for the purpose of impressing anyone with athleticism given his age. There is another vid on this thread that shows fast technique. What is interesting here is that a very old sword master is demonstrating the curriculum of his school.


M

Sorry, the Knights Templar were certainly not "priests." Also, grouping every such WMA under the banner of "Knights Templar" is like grouping every EMA under the banner of "Shaolin Monks."

Also, this post is getting off-topic. No discussions of chi, ki or other such nonsense is allowed on these forums. John asked a legitimate question and is still awaiting an answer. If someone has such an answer, please feel free to post it as he does need the information.

[Margaret Lo]

Sorry, the Knights Templar were certainly not "priests." Also, grouping every such WMA under the banner of "Knights Templar" is like grouping every EMA under the banner of "Shaolin Monks."

Also, this post is getting off-topic. No discussions of chi, ki or other such nonsense is allowed on these forums. John asked a legitimate question and is still awaiting an answer. If someone has such an answer, please feel free to post it as he does need the information.

If the knights templar were not priests, clearly they were men of faith. And perhaps you would enlighten as to who and what they were? I for one would be interested to learn.

Also, I think it is quite clear that my post is not about tai chi or qi gong but about cultural elements which have direct effects on martial arts. I opened the door to discussion of analogous elements in WMA and hoped to increase understanding one of the points in this thread: why koryu students are not interested in particpating in the film referenced. Since this thread started with the word "samurai" I think my reference to eastern concepts are not out of place.

So I find that your casual dismissal of antique concepts as "nonsense" to be lazy rather than illustrative, and closes the door to thought about all such concepts western or eastern. I think the european equivalent existed in the medical concept of bodily "humors". I submit that more discussion is the better approach.


M

[Martin Lysen]

The way I understand it, this forum is mainly dedicated to the study of the European medieval and renaissance combat skills, not to studying religious practice in monastic orders, eastern mystic lore or dark age medicine. If you wish to find out about such things, I would encourage you to pick up some good books on the subject matter.

The original post asked for practioners of armored kenjutsu, making the debate you wish to wage inappropriate for this thread.

[Margaret Lo]

The way I understand it, this forum is mainly dedicated to the study of the European medieval and renaissance combat skills, not to studying religious practice in monastic orders, eastern mystic lore or dark age medicine. If you wish to find out about such things, I would encourage you to pick up some good books on the subject matter.

The original post asked for practioners of armored kenjutsu, making the debate you wish to wage inappropriate for this thread.

Lest I repeat myself, I'll repeat myself: to the extent cultural elements influence any MA, such should be appropriate for consideration in that MA's forum.

There is no debate since no one seems interested in offering up information. Thread drift has occurred so I'll leave it here.

[Gene Tausk]

Sorry, the Knights Templar were certainly not "priests." Also, grouping every such WMA under the banner of "Knights Templar" is like grouping every EMA under the banner of "Shaolin Monks."

Also, this post is getting off-topic. No discussions of chi, ki or other such nonsense is allowed on these forums. John asked a legitimate question and is still awaiting an answer. If someone has such an answer, please feel free to post it as he does need the information.

If the knights templar were not priests, clearly they were men of faith. And perhaps you would enlighten as to who and what they were? I for one would be interested to learn.

Also, I think it is quite clear that my post is not about tai chi or qi gong but about cultural elements which have direct effects on martial arts. I opened the door to discussion of analogous elements in WMA and hoped to increase understanding one of the points in this thread: why koryu students are not interested in particpating in the film referenced. Since this thread started with the word "samurai" I think my reference to eastern concepts are not out of place.

So I find that your casual dismissal of antique concepts as "nonsense" to be lazy rather than illustrative, and closes the door to thought about all such concepts western or eastern. I think the european equivalent existed in the medical concept of bodily "humors". I submit that more discussion is the better approach.


M

I agree that cultural topics are certainly valid for this forum (but not this thread). However, "ki" and "chi" are usually referenced in metaphysical terms, which is nonsense (yes, my word, no apologies) and has no place on this forum. Unfortunately, because these terms are so laced with metaphysics, it has been my experience that having a rational discussion involving culture is next to impossible. If you are defending the existence of "ki" and "chi" in such metaphysical terms, pay a visit to the James Randi Educational Foundation and claim the $1M prize before it is gone. You can also stop by the Indian Rationalist Foundation for a quick $10,000 as well. Not $1M, but not chump change either.

It is not my job to educate you on the Knights Templar. You can do your own research. A brief examination of their history, however, will show that they were not all priests. If you subscribe to this view, bring forth your evidence.

If you notice, we don't discuss body "humors" on this forum either.

[Benjamin Smith]

I would like to go back to the evidence for sparring with no rules question raised by Vincent Le Chevalier. This is not professionally documented, I may do that sometime, but here's my short answer, I'll note manuals I remember of the top of my head where applicable.

1) The random nature of the plates in many manuals which do not seem to follow a system, but seem to be reporting the outcomes of sparring matches. While these seem to have been relatively safe there are plenty of plates showing blood and blows that should leave bruises if done with intent by federschwerter, indicating intent to actually strike the opponent. Some manuals show sets of techniques that are clear, clean and well explained, but many don't. Talhoffer, Goliath, Wallerstein, and others all show this kind of presentation of techniques.

2) Non-lethal fights. There is all sorts of records of this sort of thing in many contexts. People cracking skulls with staffs. Shedding just a little blood with blades in late smallsword play. Surrendering ended many fights.

3) Tournaments, despite our problems with competitions real warriors did participate in these. The rules for them vary a great deal and are often very very limited. People got hurt and died in these regularly. We know for a fact that some techniques were prohibited but none were scripted.

4) The utter lack of mandates in the manuals to practice the plays shown over and over until you have them perfect. They show them, but don't advise the student to do it, do it, do it, and do it again and nothing else. Joachim Meyer even advises us to" seek to add to the art in our own right [quote approximated]" which means doing things independently with intent, speed, and force. In other words unscripted sparring to experiment learn and contribute. You can't know if something works until you say, do anything you want to defend against this- aka no script. Combine this with the question and answer sessions that many masters include and we can say that leaving the student free to explore was a priority they chose to emphasize.

5) Combine this with evidence of people getting hurt in training in the manuals. As one poem says "Until a man has seen his blood flow, felt his teeth grind, and had his bones crack, he is not ready for battle. [quotation approximated]"

6) Very limited number of set plays. You can't teach the ability to do everything that is shown with only 10 set plays shown in the manuals.

7) The sheer variety of techniques indicates heavy experimentation, and necessitates free form sparring.

8 ) The fact that it is very difficult to teach real fighting skill without sparring with very open rules.

9) The emphasis on general techniques and principles that are applicable to many situations. You can't practice that myriad of situations without free sparring.

10) The mandate to work at the pell involves no patterns that I know of, but requires energy and originality. This is another indicator that they intended you to fight this way. If they had you train this way in one context, and meant you to fight this way, why would they not use the same kind of mentality in training with your master and fellow students.

11) The reports such as George Silver's of calling out opponents to have bouts in the open. This was common enough and would constitute such unscripted instances of fighting, and would not have been lethal in most circumstances to avoid dueling laws. This is part of our martial tradition, and I think is what John is trying to do in this instance.

It is true that 16th c. Japanese tradition does not parallel this very well and records lots of deaths resulting from their "calling out sessions," so we are in fact asking them to break with their tradition. It is also true that there is a significant factor of "winning bragging rights/honor," that was typical of these situations, and it would be awfully hard to contain on either side because so many people are so concerned with being "the best" that people will try to generalize about the art, not the fighters. If they want to hold to their tradition that strongly and don't want to risk losing in public then it is their prerogative not to participate.

12) Prize playing. The London Guild of Master's rules set up tests with extensive sparring if I'm not much mistaken. Which not only provides an example of sparring, but would necessitate sparring in training to prepare for such an event.

A lot of this is circumstantial, however, little if any evidence points in the other direction, certainly none that I know of that can't be countered with one of the above points. This line of thought accounts for all the evidence. Set plays were meant to teach actions in specific circumstances as well as general principles and almost certainly occurred alongside sparring, which is why they were there. I think we can safely conclude that sparring with very limited sets of rules was common, if not universally practiced, and that fights where someone did not die would constitute the "no-rules" situations which I think were probably less common, but well known.

[Stacy Clifford]

Don't forget that we have on our site an actual account of an English prize playing between teams from two towns:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Pinder.htm

Although the descriptions of the fights sound rather brutal, only one man is recorded being killed when his opponent lost his temper, and at the end of the day:

But the gamesters they went to my Host Banks where kindly embracing one another, the Kendall and Hallifax men confess they had the worst of the day, and so they that were hurt were drest, and to drinking they went merrily; for the Towne of Wakefield had given George for this brave Prize, by them so well performed, twenty Markes, which George vowed should all be spent betwixt them, before the Kendall and Hallifax men should depart.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Thanks Benjamin and Stacy for the detailed answer!

I'm trying to explore the continuum between fight to death and safer free-play that has to have more rules (if only for safety and blows acknowledgement), and these examples are something to ponder indeed...

I'm therefore off to pondering

Regards,

[John_Clements]

Thanks for everyone's comments.
Sadly, time is running out on the offer and so far very few qualified candidates have even inquired about the offer. So far no representative of any established ryuha has stepped forward --no master, no senior practitioner, no junior student. The TV crew has so far been unable to get any person to agree to simply step up and show how they can move and guard and strike against an opponent form a diverse method using a dissimilar set of arms and armor. What's so impossible about such a simple activity? I must conclude they are more concerned about losing face with their sensei/style/school/colleagues/groupies than actually demonstrating the reality of how they could act against someone from a different martial culture.

As I so often say, too many martial arts today are hyped up and watered down but missing the vital middle. They dance and prance, but do little else to preserve a functional military core of self defense in their "preservation." They promote myth and delusion to the uneducated and unskilled then hide behind vain pretense of "tradition." anyway, we'll see what transpired. The program will be going forward no matter what. Throughout history our fighting ancestors included free play as part of how they learned and exercised. We should have no excuses for not following their example today.

JC

[Peter Goranov]

I was so happy that someone finally decided to fund and organize such an event, and then so thoroughly disappointed that not ONE practitioner of JMA stepped up to the challenge. On the side note, who was the WMA representative that was ready and waiting?