Our New Curricula and a new understanding

[Jonathan Newhall]

Aye, the article appears to go on at length about how we missed a certain obvious interpretation along the way that was usually most evident in the later manuals' pictures and the earlier manuals' text.

Personally I've not done much work with the original folios, so I'm interested in seeing some actual original research for sure.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Hi Randall,

There can be absolutely no progress made in the process of re-creating the lost Medieval and Renaissance martial arts without the whole world being proven wrong from time to time. As John Clements did back in 2000, he warns in the article against the problems of an "approved consensus". To see the danger of an approved consensus just ask yourself when was the last time you saw a new interpretation of Fiore's work that really made a difference. Due to approved consensus almost all of the groups doing Fiore are basically doing little beyond what Bob Charron was doing back in 2002! To get to his current understandings of Medieval and Renaissance martial arts the first interpretations John had to challenge was 20+ years of his own work! Do other people's work deserve not to be challenged, espeically when they don't work very well?

They deserve to be challenged for sure, and I'm all for it, but merely saying they are wrong is not challenging. It seems the latest article does just that, which is what I'm not satisfied with.

Indeed the source texts are clear, but only if viewed from a correct perspective. Is sport fensing, classical fensing, stage acting, and SCA play a correct perspective? No! That's one of the main points John was addressing in the article. Once you read John's article on the Vaage footwork you will see that the later Renaisance rapier texts were not as clear to people as they thought. If those texts were completely clear then the Vaage footwork, which is clearly in those works, would be used by everybody.

Well, waiting for the article then... But I would rather have had just the article with actual content instead of the whole lot of self-congratulation, then the article.
As I said this is building up the expectations to a level that will only be more difficult to satisfy...

But I guess you guys like challenges

[I. Hartikainen]

Hi!

I'll second what Vincent is saying! In general I personally think we still have (as a community with everyone put together) a lot to learn about the source materials, and I'm used to seeing something new and exciting that 'changes everything' come along every now and then. And this is a good thing!

So, I as well am actually anticipating to be revolutionized. I'm expecting something really good stuff - and I hope to see it soon!

Randall, what comes to Fiore, I actually saw an interpretation of an important part of Fiore's work last Sunday that, to me at least, really made a difference. It does happen.

I understand the point about the dated consensus but I personally don't see it; every group is doing things differently and most improve constantly, on levels of research, interpretation and physical execution as well.

But in any case, I'm thrilled to see what Mr Clements and others have come up with, and it is nice that you are convinced that it will change the way others practice the arts as well - that means that you are not going to keep your findings to your selves!

Yours,
Ilkka

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hi

Due to approved consensus almost all of the groups doing Fiore are basically doing little beyond what Bob Charron was doing back in 2002! To get to his current understandings of Medieval and Renaissance martial arts the first interpretations John had to challenge was 20+ years of his own work! Do other people's work deserve not to be challenged, espeically when they don't work very well?

Yes They do. But here's the tricky question: when was the last time we met and you saw what I am teaching, and how? I wish to tribute John as I always did for his revolutionary work in 2000 which was, putting up tons of material on the net, thus helping a lot of groups and individuals. To start, or to evolve. But that's almost ten years ago, and a lot of things happened since that. Just as ARMA felt it necessary to challenge its own 20+ years of work, so did others.
I witnessed a lot of good fights, I learned from a lot of fantastic teachers and we do our own jobs as well. If you look at the global HEMA survey taking place right now, there are literally thousands of people doing this art outside the US. So to claim to be the world's leading man in the field one would need to, at least, know these groups by name. So pardon the world if somebody feels this kind of talk a bit aggressive.
Still I go with Ilkka that I am curious and I hope we see something truly revolutionary, for, to be fair, a lot of stuff needs to be re-discovered and interpreted and we all could be wrong in a fundamental way. Or maybe not

SZAB

[Jonathan Newhall]

Well, now we've got a good outline of the (lack of) groundfighting in medieval and renaissance martial arts, but personally I'm still waiting for the big stuff like new footwork and good striking from Kron (which is generally considered a very weak position to fence from from what I've seen elsewhere or from the past).

[Stacy Clifford]

I've talked to JC about the vaage article and it's being delayed because he's still compiling more evidence to add to it, but it should be out around the end of the year. Trust me, even though ARMA members already get to work with the concept in training, we want to see the research article as much as you do, so we're all waiting impatiently. Expect this one to be long and thorough when released.

[Stacy Clifford]

Regarding kron, I suppose it depends what you mean by "fence from." You certainly don't start there, it's just the natural point where you engage your opponent (if he gets his sword in your way) and from there wind to defeat him. It's weak tactically if you get predictable and always try to draw the fight into kron, which some people can misinterpret the manuals as trying to instruct (we've puzzled over that ourselves before, it just didn't sound right), but physically I can throw some pretty hard strikes from there.

[I. Hartikainen]

Stacy, you're rising the expectations!

As to Kron, the key of (especially longsword fighting) may well be found therein. After all, we see Fiore as well showing all his longsword plays flowing from the incrosada, but he doesn't really discuss how one is to get there.

- Ilkka

[Bob Brooks]

Hi John and everyone else,

I have to say I found the article very, very interesting because it describes the approach I have taken at the Hotspur School for some considerable time now.

By closely examining why we do something, rather than just repeating motions, a whole new world opens up.

I recognise your epiphany!

Best wishes,

Bob
Marshal of the Hotspur School of Defence.

[Jonathan Newhall]

I just wanna say this somewhat off-topic thing, Bob, but it's impressive how you signed up for an account 2+ years ago and only just now get around to posting

[Bob Brooks]

I just wanna say this somewhat off-topic thing, Bob, but it's impressive how you signed up for an account 2+ years ago and only just now get around to posting

Hahaha. If you look elsewhere, I posted on the videos featuring Aaron et al.

I don't get too much time to browse the fora these days (kids, work etc), but from time to time I pop in to say hello

Best wishes,

B

[Andrew F Ulrich]

Before you read the rest, I'd like to say these are my own views, and I cannot speak for John, or everyone at ARMA. I'm not sure if it's most tactful to open up this can of worms, but I don't like how people go and harp on John for what they think is just empty bragging.

Well, I don't think this article was meant to reveal everything, and not simply because he wanted to put up some sort of teaser. Sure, you can obviously tell he's excited about the material, and he freely expresses that excitement, but there's two things that I think shouldn't be overlooked.

First, and this is important, sometimes you just can't write stuff down- you have to experience it. Otherwise, why didn't everybody get it right off when they read the fechtbuchen? I don't think any series of articles that John or anyone else can write will encompass all the essentials of the art, and it's unfair to expect anything that doesn't fall short of that.

Second, what happened in 2000? I think it was mentioned that John presented a bunch of material that was appreciated. That's great, but that's not all that happened. Yes, it helped to debunk some myths, and establish some foundational perspectives and concepts, as it was intended to, but instead of everyone progressing from that foundation, several things happened:
-some people picked and chose whatever didn't conflict with what they were already doing, and went home and grafted it into their way of doing things, instead of weeding out their inaccuracies.
-others took it home, claimed they learned a little, or even nothing, then after a while, started 'discovering' 'revolutionary' ideas- suspiciously similar to what had been taught at the conference, which they didn't acknowledge.
-others learned what was taught, then outright claimed that it's what they've been doing all along
-others heard what was taught, claimed to follow what was taught, but continued to 'progress' in their erroneous practices under the banner of the principles that were taught

What's happened since 2000?
-Well, for starters, after many other presentations of ARMA material, the above has happened again and again, further solidifying the evidence that this is not just a few select people that are doing this, but a tendency of a great number of people in the community
-Secondly, and this is what is really the problem: the same people who came here to learn principles have begun to resent ARMA for the following reasons:
-first, and this is an 'of course', ARMA takes a no-nonsense approach, and are not afraid to tell people they're wrong (and demonstrate it in person when they can). Of course there's plenty of people out there who get ruffled at this (many of them described above), as it means breaking egos, and sometimes, in the case of demonstrations, bashing fingers, bruising arms, etc in front of peers/students. Some people just can't take that.
-second, we don't reveal everything we know, and sometimes we just can't given the limitations of communication and people's abilities to learn certain things, and sometimes it's simply that people have shown that they simply don't have enough character to be entrusted with information. People sometimes can't understand this (I think this also somewhat applies to the current situation), and get annoyed, or even aggressive since they're used to simply getting what they want when they ask for it, or they're so used to being taught how to do something that when something is only partially revealed, and it's apparent that they need to figure the rest out themselves, they become lost and afraid, resentful of the person who put them in that situation. This happens a lot more than you might think, and it's the cause of many problems.
-third, people at ARMA get annoyed, and rightfully so, at the kind of plagiarism that I described above. People like John try to speak out about it, and get shot down or disrespected for what they think is him just tooting his own horn.
-fourth, when some people see the material ARMA presents, they demand to be shown that their alternative ways are wrong, greedy for progress which they forget is generously given, and get impatient, resentful of ARMA's claims of superiority in the area, and prideful of their own approach after ARMA never got around to catering to their needs
-fifth, those inaccuracies that were never uprooted by their creators in 2000 have been built upon, and the 'jungle' that John mentioned in the article has sprouted up because of it.


Like I said, these things happen a lot- a whole lot more than is prudent to ignore. So why should John rush to write an article that would reveal things that he worked very hard and very long on, so that others can react in the above ways, eventually leading to more flak, misogynations, plagiarizations, and drama?

So what does this article accomplish? I think it tries to point out that something has been discovered. It describes the discovery without revealing everything about the discovery, but enough to identify the discovery and establish where it was discovered. These things will be further expounded upon in the series of videos or whatever that he says he's going to put out. Is it dissapointing to some people? Yeah, some people go to it expecting to be blown away, then to go back and digest it, then wait impatiently to be fed again. I'd say, if you want to learn what you say you want to learn, why haven't you joined ARMA and attended a seminar or joined a study group, and earned that knowledge through hands-on work, time, effort and, yes, sometimes it also takes money? Why complain about not getting it all instantly in a free article posted publicly on the internet by an organization you don't even belong to? The article has revealed what it was supposed to have revealed.