Question on vom tag

[Jonathan Hill]

Alber (or middle iron door) dictates you will do an ascending blow or a punta, thus you have very few option of a descending blow from that position. LVT as it is being called (or a variation of woman’s guard) still gives you the option of a descending blow while you maintain a high guard resting position. Yes it limits your target, available attacks and perhaps power but all guards do this in one way or the other, thus the reason for selecting different guards. Even a high Vom Tag indicates a target and a trajectory even if it has more available options.

I have no intention of arguing over if one guard is good or bad, I look at all of them as tools in a toolbox. I’ve read enough threads about how Alber is a stupid guard that I’ve taken the opinion that if you choose to limit the tools in your own toolbox that is up to you and eventually when you face someone who uses it effectively the theory’s will be tested. What I did wonder is what is the difference between floating the blade an inch above or resting it? The guard is shown in a few places meaning it was used regularly, so the validity of the guard is not up for debate regardless of what weaknesses it may have.

[Randall Pleasant]

Keeping the guard low and resting the blade on the shoulder turns it into a wrist cut if you go for a Zornhau or Oberhau. It drastically reduces your range of strike, your options, and your ability to generate power.

Absolutely true! In ARMA holding Vom Tag with the hilt at the waist and the sword against the shoulder is referred to as Lazy Vom Tag.

It may reduce fatigue, but it equally reduces your range of options and striking power. If you need to reduce fatigue, use a lower guard like Alber and gain some distance.

I am way out of shape, ride two bad 52 year old knees, have joins that pop like pop-corn when I move, and I have the lungs that sometimes function at only 53%, yet I can hold my sword in Vom Tag. Anyone who is so fatigued that they cannot hold their sword off their shoulder should drop their sword, call 911, and go to a hospital. Resting the sword upon the shoulder is just plain lazy! Plus it is just simply un-martial.

[william_cain_iii]

I'm not really arguing that Low Vom Tag is a 'bad' guard, simply that it limits options too much for me to like it personally. Additionally, the fatigue angle can be -better- corrected by physical conditioning rather than just using a variation on vom tag/hawk.

Additionally, I've been studying Ringeck on my own for about two -weeks-, since I got the book. Before that, I've had teachers helping me for about two months. So I'm not speaking from major long term authority, just personal interpretations as a beginner.

[RayMcCullough]

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/Dl6.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/pdf/dlr2.jpg

top right on both.

Just out of curiosity why wouldn't you put the blade on the shoulder if the blade is in a similar position? Naturally this is Italian, not strictly vom tag, but what is the disadvantage on resting the blade? The fight is not always with the arms and if someone wants to tire themselves out by always keeping the blade floating, or even better always using an instable guard that tires the arms out that's their business. Resting the blade reduces fatigue.

Edit: Reading Calebs thread I’m understanding your viewpoint but I’ll still maintain if you use a LVT the difference between resting the blade and making it float are minimal at best, and nothing that elongating your time with footwork wouldn’t fix. Studying Italian these are generally resting positions and all the ‘flaws’ that are brought up in regards to them are basically philosophical.

As to the OP’s question reading the thread Caleb referenced should answer your question, and except for the contesting Mairs plate of if the blade is resting or half an inch off the shoulder are bypassed, you have an example.
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... 3&seite=53

In none of the images you have shown or that I have seen in any manual has the sword resting on the shoulder.

What European master from anywhere tells us to rest the sword on the shoulder in any guard ,especially vom tag or one similar to it?

[Alex Bourdas]

No, none of the masters use the word rest as far as I'm aware. They just say hold the sword at the shoulder, which without any other information could mean you hold the sword just in front of the shoulder, above the shoulder, or resting on it. The images also leave room for debate, as they are not clear if the sword is resting on the shoulder or not. Personally, when I hold vom tag, I do it so that the sword barely touches the shoulder, and I've never noticed any problems, but I've not been doing HEMA for as long as some of you guys.
Do you object to the low vom tag entirely, or do you think low vom tag would be okay if the sword doesn't actually touch the shoulder?

[RayMcCullough]

Having the sword at the shoulder or above the head is where we are told to put it. As what has already been said by others, having the sword resting on you anywhere limits your options for attack and gives your opponent a really good idea of what you can attack. Resting the sword makes no sense in a fight.

I do not object to vomtag being held at the shoulder or above the head. What do you mean by low?

Try this experiment...
-Find some one who has no clue about fighting or weapons or just anyone who doesn't know what you are up to.
-Hand them an item. A pen, flashlight, a broom, etc...
-Tell them to hold the item at the shoulder, if the item has to be held in two hands tell them to point one end up.

See where they hold it. They will not rest it on there shoulder, especially if you tell them to hit something with it.

[Alex Bourdas]

When I say low, I mean at the shoulder.
We can think of vom tag being held low, at the shoulder, as seen in Dobringer for example, or being held at a middle height, next to the head, for example as seen in the start of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h3V_bM6 ... re=related, or as being held high and above the head, as seen for example in Meyer.

Both guys in the video start with a vom tag that is higher than at the shoulder position and lower than the over the head position seen in the manuals.

[CalebChow]

When I say low, I mean at the shoulder.
We can think of vom tag being held low, at the shoulder, as seen in Dobringer for example, or being held at a middle height, next to the head, for example as seen in the start of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h3V_bM6 ... re=related, or as being held high and above the head, as seen for example in Meyer.

Both guys in the video start with a vom tag that is higher than at the shoulder position and lower than the over the head position seen in the manuals.

Personally I haven't seen a picture from a source manual exactly like it, but it works well.
Not to make an "appeal" based on another art, but you do see a similar guard in Japanese sword arts as well if that says anything.

The old ARMA article here covers another reason:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/StancesIntro.htm


"The "roof" guard may also be placed over the (generally right side) shoulder rather than over the head. The hilt can be above or in front of the collar, but not down in front of the chest. Note the blade is neither angled behind the head, nor held horizontal, nor resting on the shoulder. Some armors prevent holding the weapon above the head, hence the side version. More stable than held above the head, the position still permits a variety of threats and counters. This position easily turns around into ox or drops down to plow."

[RayMcCullough]

Vom tag is a gaurd. It is used when fighting. You will not find an image from a Martial Arts Manual or period art where a man who is fighting for his life will REST the sword on his shoulder or any other part of his body. He will be USING the sword. If he is resting it, he will not be in the fight.

Alex. Remember the manuscripts are snapshots of men fighting. They are in motion. To seek to match the manuscripts pose for pose will put you in positions that will not make sense. If you seek to match the motions and the actions being performed, you will find yourself in those positions in the Manuscripts and they will make sense. You are learning to fight/self-defense. You have to approach the craft with that mindset.

The evidence is there. The instructions for how to use it(vom tag) is there. Train hard.

Later
Ray

[Jorge Cortines]

Vom tag is a gaurd. It is used when fighting. You will not find an image from a Martial Arts Manual or period art where a man who is fighting for his life will REST the sword on his shoulder or any other part of his body. He will be USING the sword. If he is resting it, he will not be in the fight.

Alex. Remember the manuscripts are snapshots of men fighting. They are in motion. To seek to match the manuscripts pose for pose will put you in positions that will not make sense. If you seek to match the motions and the actions being performed, you will find yourself in those positions in the Manuscripts and they will make sense. You are learning to fight/self-defense. You have to approach the craft with that mindset.

The evidence is there. The instructions for how to use it(vom tag) is there. Train hard.

Later
Ray

Absolutly agree with Ray!!! Vom Tag is a guard!

The LVT if it is resting on your shoulder, what would you be guarding while the guy in front of you was trying to kill you?

If you are in LVT, how can you be in Constant Motus (motion) as the Master tell us to be? He who is still is dead, he who moves is alive...

If we assume the LVT rests on the shoulder because it can tire us, by that reasoning while doing the VT above the head should we rest the sword's blade on our head so we don't get tired too?

How can you defend by counter cutting to the left side without cutting your own head? you only can make a vertical or right to low left snapping cut... or you need to go first to the Vom Tag and then countercut...

How can you defend against a zornhau, the most powerful cut, by cutting from the LVT? you loose reach which makes you try to displace a zornhau with your weak against a stronger part of the incoming blade and you cannot make a strong cut by snapping, so displacing becomes almost impossible... you will not be able to displace it... nor reach with a cut to your opponent by snapping from LVT...

Experiment from both guards against a zornhau by vigorous freeplay... and see for yourself.

As Ray is saying the images are like snapshots from constant motus, Vom Tag is a guard that is covering that right upper opening, probably (my interpretation) of why it says "at" the should, meaning it should guard all that whole area, if it is resting you are not guarding...

Regards,

Jorge

[Sripol Asanasavest]

I guess, fighting against a psychopath they wouldn't wait for you.... They would look for every opportunity to kill you. They aren't like normal people. Normal wouldn't attack you if they don't know you and you haven't done anything to them first. I also think it's bad idea.

I guess...best stay out of fight...!

[Yu Fei Leung]

I guess, fighting against a psychopath they wouldn't wait for you.... They would look for every opportunity to kill you. They aren't like normal people. Normal wouldn't attack you if they don't know you and you haven't done anything to them first. I also think it's bad idea.

I guess...best stay out of fight...!

My best friend's former coworker used to be a bully at school. The guy is big and strong. But it didn't matter, because apparently he offended the wrong guy at some point. Someone snuck up behind him, bagged his head, and then beat him savagely with a baseball bat or a club or something. Broke his jaw, broke some ribs, broke his arms. To this day he still has no idea who did that to him. But after that he changed his behavior.

Not only is it best to stay out of fights, it's better not to be a rude jerk to people.

[RayMcCullough]

I guess, fighting against a psychopath they wouldn't wait for you.... They would look for every opportunity to kill you. They aren't like normal people. Normal wouldn't attack you if they don't know you and you haven't done anything to them first. I also think it's bad idea.

I guess...best stay out of fight...!

If cows could fly, carwash businesses would make a killing!

What does this have to do with the discussion? Really?

We are discussing combat/fighting from a point in the incounter that running is not an option. If running was always an option, then we would not need to study and practice Martial Arts.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

I probably should have been clearer.... What I'm trying to say is: when you fight a psychopath, there is no time to play or joke around. You get right down to business! Sorry about that!

[RayMcCullough]

I probably should have been clearer.... What I'm trying to say is: when you fight a psychopath, there is no time to play or joke around. You get right down to business! Sorry about that!

Whether your attacker(s)/opponent(s) is a psychopath or not, you don't have time to play or joke around when your life is at stake.

Which is another reason to not use the so-called "Lazy Vom tag". Why even call it(the LVT) a vom tag. Why do something that will get you killed in combat. **trying to tie the post back to the topic** LOL Pun not intended.