A Couple of questions on the rapier

[Sam Nankivell]

A sword can take an arm off. A rapier might be able to cut to the bone. But a true rapier might only make a cut on the skin, perhaps not at all.

I must strongly disagree with you categories. Like Tom Leoni you are lumping swords like the Albion Capoferro and the Albion Marozzo into a single category of rapier. This leads to confusion rather than to clearity. If a blade can cut to the bone then it is a sword. If it can cut to the bone and can easily deliver a thrust then it is a Cut & Thrust sword, not a rapier. It seems we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. I cannot find any scholarly grounds on which I can accept Tom Leoni's definition of rapier as any single hand sword of the Renaissance period.

I would not lump the Marozzo and the Capoferro both under the category of "rapier". To me, the Marozzo is clearly a sword, since it could probably take a limb off. However, the Capoferro is a rapier. It is a rapier and not a "true" rapier because I think I could still make a decent (i.e. not good yet still worth doing) cut to a weak portion of the body such as the forearm or head.

Sorry if I was vague. My intention was not to lump all Renaissance single-handed swords under the category of rapier like Tom does. Nor was it to establish a very narrow definition of rapier like John Clements does (to my knowledge). Rather, my intention was for rapier to apply to a sword like the Capoferro: One that is primarily for thrusting but could still make cuts since it has an edge (unlike unedged "true rapiers").

Hope this clarifies things.

[Randall Pleasant]

Rather, my intention was for rapier to apply to a sword like the Capoferro: One that is primarily for thrusting but could still make cuts since it has an edge (unlike unedged "true rapiers").

Sam

In my limited understanding of discussions with John Clements, who has handled many many historical rapiers around the world, a historical rapier similar to the Albion Capoferro would not be able to cut well (see the test cutting videos on this site). Yes, such a rapier can bust/cut to the bone on the skull but it would not be able to cut to the bone on the arm or leg. Cutting to the bone on the skull is very easy. In my younger days I made a cut to the skull a couple of inches long on using a short piece of 3/8 inch cable on a fellow construction worker who was being very unfriendly.

[Sam Nankivell]

In my limited understanding of discussions with John Clements, who has handled many many historical rapiers around the world, a historical rapier similar to the Albion Capoferro would not be able to cut well (see the test cutting videos on this site). Yes, such a rapier can bust/cut to the bone on the skull but it would not be able to cut to the bone on the arm or leg. Cutting to the bone on the skull is very easy. In my younger days I made a cut to the skull a couple of inches long on using a short piece of 3/8 inch cable on a fellow construction worker who was being very unfriendly.

Thanks for leading me to the test-cutting videos. I have to say, that star-shaped rapier was quite a beauty to watch in action and it made quite an interesting sound when "swashed" .

Well, if a rapier like the Capoferro cannot cut, than what about one of the same basic build and weight but with, say, 1/12 of an inch on each side. At what point does a rapier turn into a very slender cut and thrust sword?

Just as an example of what I would call a more "meaty" rapier capable of cuts, here is one rapier, circa 1620, owned by Tom Leoni:

The thing that singles this out as a weapon capable of cutting for me is the lack of taper in the last third of the blade. Something that doesn't seem to be present in the Capoferro.

I have more pictures of good "cutting" (emphasis on the quotations, they still wouldn't cut as well as cut and thrust swords) rapiers on my hard-drive, but I am not sure how to post them here (there doesn't seem to be any button for image attachments, just url images). I even have one image of a rapier that I could swear has a lenticular cross-section, something very unusual for a rapier.