New editorial - Western Civ & Spartans

[Martin Wallgren]

Yepp! I think most of us over here in Europe calles it HEMA nowadays. WMA is at least in Sweden assosiated with more moderna arts like Savate, Kickboxing, BJJ, Vale tudo, MMA and other simillar!

Well the abrevations is a Jungle!

[Will Adamson]

Well, cultures evolve just like living things. (Darwin was English!) Just because we now see great differences in the mentalities of europe and her former colonies (the US in particular) is no reason to ignore a common ancestry that is only a few hundred years back.

I don't identify myself as a Scots-Irish-American. I am an American who comes from Scottish and Irish roots. Perhaps a little different mindset than my ancestors who came over around 1730, but if things didn't change a bit over time we would not be evolving and adapting and thus creating new things like baseball and indoor electric lighting.

[Justin Lompado]

I would add:

The Golden Sayings of Epictetus and The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, if I may.

They are redundant after your list, but serve to drive the point home.

"There is no new philosophy, only re walking Aristotle's ground."

Agreed, however I havnen't read either. I'm reading Vegetius now, then I'll look into Marcus Aurelius.

[J Marwood]

Interesting that you added the "alone" to the quote.

That was a cut/paste from a previous post. Interesting how you only choose to mention it 2 days after the original post.

Show me another civilization that has added the concepts of scientific inquiry.

And religious tolerance.

And individual liberty.

And economic freedom.

And the rule of law.

...

Just one?

I'm not sure what relevance this has to the discussion but sure, no problem - just define first which base culture we're talking about. Define this nebulous 'Western Culture'.

And really, whether or not we borrowed them from other cultures and developed them, or invented them, is irrelevant. We incorporated them all and that is the point.

YES! That is exactly the point. We* incorporated ideas from multiple culture, not just from the Greeks and Romans. They also adopted ideas from multiple cultures and so on. To draw a direct lineage from one culture to another and to disavow any other links is foolish. All cultures, from macro-cultures like those we see at a pan-national level to subcultures consisting of a handful of people have mixed and varied roots.

As an aside, if another culture did develop them and then didn't make use of them, and abandoned them, that would be one of the most pathetic things I had ever heard. You would be better off if you never knew, that you would be if you simply decided to abandon truth and live in dirt.

Again, I agree. One of the saddest things about modern Islam is that we can see much of value in it's medieval roots and yet this appears to have been lost.



*By which I mean the modern culture based upon largely Anglo-Saxon, Northern European roots of which the UK, Germany, Austria, much of the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand were based. Of course this doesn't mean that other cultures did not also have mixed origins.

[Mike Cartier]

I am not going to get into a whole "does western civ exist" argument here, i did enough of that at the Schola forum with some of you only to be roundly insulted.

i have seen the west with my own eyes, lived all over the west, anyone who denies it exists has an axe to grind.
We do not need to point to it on a map to see it, its not a place its part of the culture the first people to use this concept were the Romans and the Greeks. The idea of being Roman and Greek came to mean much more than ethnicity or even citizenship but indicated a type of civilizing, an outlook on life with expectations.

Its patently absurd to think that western culture doesn't exist, i don't care how many academics care to ignore it in favor of political correcteness.
These are the same brilliant academics who choose to ignore the classical education all together, the same c;lassical education that has been the norm for a few thousand years and is suddenly no good.
Its classical revisionism.

To draw a direct lineage from one culture to another and to disavow any other links is foolish.

the only people disavowing links here are the naysayers, noone has said one time anywhere that Greece and ROman are the only influences on western civ, stop twisitng what we say. However the greco-roman world is the PRIMARY FORMATIVE INFLUENCE on western civ. How much more clearer can we make it than that? if you wish to take that to mean only then so be it, but its not what we are saying.
I don't really care if a greco-roman base bothers anyones nationalist sensibilities, its so long ago i cannot see why it should do such a thing. But it certainly is important to acknowledge our roots not act like it never happened.

every major discipline in the west has a major root in the greco-roman world, how much more proof do we need of thier influence on us. Its not the only influence but it is a very large influence. Why is this distasteful to some people?

[J Marwood]

I would add:

The Golden Sayings of Epictetus and The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, if I may.

They are redundant after your list, but serve to drive the point home.

"There is no new philosophy, only re walking Aristotle's ground."

Agreed, however I havnen't read either. I'm reading Vegetius now, then I'll look into Marcus Aurelius.

OT, but an excellent list of such works is the St John's College reading list. It is a herculean task for someone who is not studying full time to complete it but I would suggest as a long term project it would be worth while. I'm still working through it

Just reading them is not enough though - quality discussion on them is also vital, I had good success with book club type discussions with colleagues.

EDIT: I was also advised to add Castiglione, the works of Karl Popper, Postrel's 'The Future and It's Enemies', Bastiat's 'Economic Sophisms', Swifts' 'A Modest Proposal', the Koran, the Dhamapanna, The Bhagavad Gita, the Divrei Torah and the Tibetan Book of The Dead.

[J Marwood]

Its patently absurd to think that western culture doesn't exist, i don't care how many academics care to ignore it in favor of political correcteness.

.

Sorry, but I must beg to differ on this. What you claim as obvious, I claim is simply lazy scholarship and an unwillingness or inability to set out a reasoned argument. The problem with the term 'Western Culture' is that we simply do not know what it's boundaries are. Does it include Russia? Israel? Portugal? France? Former European colonies like the USA, Brazil and New Zealand? These are all very different cultures and to lump them together is so vague as to make it a useless definition.

the only people disavowing links here are the naysayers, noone has said one time anywhere that Greece and ROman are the only influences on western civ, stop twisitng what we say.

IIRC you made exactly that claim on the Schola forum. Mr Clements disavowed any link between Turkey and ancient Greece. Perhaps you did not intend to make that claim, in that case I would suggest you take more care in what you post.

However the greco-roman world is the PRIMARY FORMATIVE INFLUENCE on western civ. How much more clearer can we make it than that?

Can we agree that it is a major influence? Personally I see as much influence from the Germanic tribal cultures into modern British culture, for example.

I don't really care if a greco-roman base bothers anyones nationalist sensibilities, its so long ago i cannot see why it should do such a thing. But it certainly is important to acknowledge our roots not act like it never happened.

Same as I cannot see how showing that some things the article claimed were greco-roman in origin actually began elsewhere can be seen as denigrating anything. I honestly thin that, if we step back and look at this rationally, we are in danger of violently agreeing on this point!

every major discipline in the west has a major root in the greco-roman world, how much more proof do we need of their influence on us. Its not the only influence but it is a very large influence. Why is this distasteful to some people?

It is the sloppy, lazy thinking behind the claim that is distasteful, not the claim itself. You are making claims without backing them up, simply crying 'It's obvious' when challenged. Surely if it is obvious you'd be able to back up the claim with more then hyperbole and histrionics. To do more than accuse those who challenge these assertions as being 'ashamed of their culture' or 'politically correct'. Mr Cartier, I'd make the same appeal to you and your colleagues here that was made on the Schola forum. Make a rational, reasoned case, back up your claims, show your evidence. It really is rudimentary academic behaviour.

We (or at least I) am not attacking you, or your culture. I am simply asking you to better understand it's roots and to show some better scholarship.

[John_Clements]

I realize that they don't really teach history in school anymore, and that a certain nihilistic anti-Western cultural-relativism dominates the social sciences now, but I am truly flabbergasted at the difficulty some have in grasping some historical perspective.

We are in a historical organization.
History is not some remote nebulous thing.
It is about real people who lived lives.
History is what our ancestors did.
We are directly connected to it.
We are a product of it.
It is our heritage.
We are inheritors of its legacy.

It should not be incredibly hard to understand the origin of certain cultural ideas and values, where they came from and how they evolved. Our world didn't suddenly appear out of a vacuum a few generations ago.

Historians trace (and argue over) the connections of ideas and events.
There are aspects of our Western martial culture today that stem arguably from the Greeks down through the ages to modern times forming elements common to the Western way of war.

Medieval & Renaissance fighting men existed in a certain social and cultural milieu, which came out of what was earlier and grew later into our own now. Understanding this helps us understand their mindset and their arts, as well as better appreciate them now.

The source literature we study on European fighting arts makes frequent reference to cultural, theological, and philosophical ideas. The classical values and beliefs they reflect should not be ignored in our study of the Renaissance (e.g., WESTERN) martial arts.


Before I head off out of state this weekend to teach, I've been asked to compile a list of "Further Reading" on this topic of the origin and tradition of Western Civilization. Here are my highest recommendations:

Carnage and Culture -Victor D. Hansen
Triumph of the West - J. M. Roberts
Conquest and Carnage - Thomas Sowell
The Civilization of Europe in the Renaissance - John Hale
The Day the Universe Changed - James Burke
Honor: A History - James Bowman
A History of Knowledge- Charles Van Doren
The Discoverers - James Bornstein
From Dawn to Decadence: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life - Jacques Barzun
Battle: A History of Combat and Culture - John Lynn
Bonfire of the Humanities - Hansen, et al
Who Killed Homer? - Hansen, et al
An Incomplete Education - Jones & Wilson
Why We Fight - Bill Bennett

These titles are do not preach the now standard anti-Western anti-Classical view of history so many have only been exposed to. Since most higher education has all but abandoned Classical curriculum on Western Civ and the Humanities, and most people interested in our subject are learned only off The Discovery Channel, I advise starting with this primer: Culture and Values - A Survey of the Western Humanities.

JC

[Nigel Plum]

I am not going to get into a whole "does western civ exist" argument here, i did enough of that at the Schola forum with some of you only to be roundly insulted.

We to be honest, we insult each other a lot too. That thread was really quite polite by our standards. Incredably as it seems some people were actually bending over backwards not to appear hostile.

the only people disavowing links here are the naysayers, noone has said one time anywhere that Greece and ROman are the only influences on western civ,.

But Mike you did say precisely that on our forum until we called you on it. It may have been a typo but it was what you wrote.

However the greco-roman world is the PRIMARY FORMATIVE INFLUENCE on western civ. How much more clearer can we make it than that?

That's your opinion, which you stated several times, but failed to back up with evidence.
several people posted a nmber of reasons why they felt that Germanic & Middle Eastern influences were as important, which you generally dismissed, without any supporting argument.

if you wish to take that to mean only then so be it, but its not what we are saying.
I don't really care if a greco-roman base bothers anyones nationalist sensibilities, its so long ago i cannot see why it should do such a thing. But it certainly is important to acknowledge our roots not act like it never happened.

every major discipline in the west has a major root in the greco-roman world, how much more proof do we need of thier influence on us. Its not the only influence but it is a very large influence. Why is this distasteful to some people?

It doesn't bother me as you said it's along time ago, nor do i find the concept distasteful. I just find it not to be the whole truth.

Angel assures me that you're one of the good guys, so you're always welcome back. Although I can't guarantee you won't be insulted, anymore than I can't guarantee that I won't be.

Cheers, Nigel

[Martin Wallgren]

I realize that they don't really teach history in school anymore, and that a certain nihilistic anti-Western cultural-relativism dominates the social sciences now, but I am truly flabbergasted at the difficulty some have in grasping some historical perspective.

We are in a historical organization.
History is not some remote nebulous thing.
It is about real people who lived lives.
History is what our ancestors did.
We are directly connected to it.
We are a product of it.
It is our heritage.
We are inheritors of its legacy.

It should not be incredibly hard to understand the origin of certain cultural ideas and values, where they came from and how they evolved. Our world didn't suddenly appear out of a vacuum a few generations ago.

Historians trace (and argue over) the connections of ideas and events.
There are aspects of our Western martial culture today that stem arguably from the Greeks down through the ages to modern times forming elements common to the Western way of war.

Medieval & Renaissance fighting men existed in a certain social and cultural milieu, which came out of what was earlier and grew later into our own now. Understanding this helps us understand their mindset and their arts, as well as better appreciate them now.

The source literature we study on European fighting arts makes frequent reference to cultural, theological, and philosophical ideas. The classical values and beliefs they reflect should not be ignored in our study of the Renaissance (e.g., WESTERN) martial arts.

I agree with this!

But I do not come to exactly the same conclutions of what the heritage we inherit is!

Then we all are influenced by who we are and where we are! Mr Clements editorial are colored by his views and who he is, as it should be. Non of us have to agree with all or some of the statements he made. But we have to accept his right to post a editorial like this. Just as he and everybody else is in their rights to publish their thoughts and have the rights to be critisized upon them.

Just because I don´t agree on everything in this particular text I do apprisiate all the hard work Mr C has put into the HEMA over the years.

Take care everybody!

[Martin Wallgren]

Angel assures me that you're one of the good guys, so you're always welcome back. Although I can't guarantee you won't be insulted, anymore than I can't guarantee that I won't be.

Cheers, Nigel

I say Mike C is clearly on the sunny side of the good ones! I consider him a friend! Even though he has lived in the darkness of the Danish Flag!

(this last was Ironic and I have nothing against Danes at all if some Dane out there where offended. Just a Scandinavian brother quarrel we have had for the last 1000 years!

[philippewillaume]

Hello
I can understand the sense of John’s article, especially in light of the cultural differences between the US and Europe or even England.
And if we take Diderot/Angelo fencing stuff well yes we need to take it with classical letters in mind.
But equally classical letters means tidily squat to lichtanaeur fencing other than a passing reference to Aristotle in “Dobringer” but you have magical recipes as well. Equally you have Hebrew and Persian alphabet in 1459 Thalloffer along with a horoscope…
It seems quite clear, that German Medieval fencing is more inscribed in a Germano-Scandinavian view of the world than any other cultural influence.

phil

[J Marwood]

These titles are do not preach the now standard anti-Western anti-Classical view of history so many have only been exposed to. Since most higher education has all but abandoned Classical curriculum on Western Civ and the Humanities, and most people interested in our subject are learned only off The Discovery Channel, I advise starting with this primer: Culture and Values - A Survey of the Western Humanities.

Yes, a higer standard of learning than the Discovery Channel would indeed be welcome.

I'm still not clear on this concept of 'Western Culture' though. I really would be grateful if you could expand on it more.

[J Marwood]

Mr Clements has still to provide any justification for his claim that Turkey cannot claim decent from Greece, that "Western Civilization alone produced the concepts of scientific inquiry, religious tolerance, individual liberty, economic freedom, and the rule of law"

Interesting that you added the "alone" to the quote.

Mr Welch, I have jsut accessed a cached copy of the article, from which the original quote I took was taken, and the text was origina;y written as I quoted. It appears that the article has been edited between the time I quoted and the time that you posted the above.

Editing an article under discussion without informing or noting the changes is very bad form. Not only does it it make it very difficult to have a discussion when we are looking at different versions of a document, but it could lead a more suspicious soul than I to assume that you had done this to make it appear that I was dishonest and dishonourable in my quoting of Mr Clements work.

[Gene Tausk]

[quote="Webmaster"]Webmaster's Note: Because there have been some questions, let me make clear that no users have been banned because of the posts you are currently able to read on this board. Those posts are still up because they constitute valid debate. Inflammatory posts that result in the barring of a user are usually deleted here, so what you see does not tell the whole story of what actually occurred. My point: DO NOT JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS!

Also, John is not the only person on this forum with the ability to ban users, and he was not involved in any of the moderation actions carried out on this thread thus far, so accusations of him banishing dissenters are unfounded. If you have a question regarding a moderator's action, please PM a moderator first and ask before making public accusations of hypocrisy or unfairness.

Moderator's Note:

Stacy is correct when he states that John Clements had nothing to do with banning certain individuals. This is a moderated forum and those who do not or will not follow our rules will not be tolerated. We posted at the beginning of this year a reminder on forum rules, then took it down. Maybe we need to bring it back up?

In any case, we do not allow people on our forums who scream and yell. "Screaming and yelling" consists of the following behavior: a person makes an offensive post, the post is deleted. The person re-posts it, and it is deleted again. The person posts it yet again, and it is deleted once more. It is easy to see where this behavior is going so the person is banned.

We also do not allow people on this forum who try to bully us. "Bully" means the following behavior: the person makes an offensive post and then says: "you guys welcome arguments, keep this post to prove it." We have nothing to prove. If a person makes offensive posts and then "dares" us to keep the post up on the forum, the person is not here to debate, but rather to bully. The person will be banned from our forums.

I could list other behaviors which have caused posts to be deleted, but I am sure you get the idea. Incidentally, some people have posted that they are "offended" by John Clements' editorial (NOTE: it is an editorial, not a doctoral dissertation). I have no idea why people are "offended" by the editorial but ARMA is not here to serve as Dr. Feelgood.

If someone needs counseling for being "offended," try this guy instead: http://www.drphil.com/

Here's an idea: if you don't like the editorial, write one of your own and post it on your own website. Don't expect us to post it on ours. We are not a public-service forum or a grievance forum.

Finally, I am amazed at how the simple act of debate seems to be a lost art. Here is an example of how to make a possible criticism of John's EDITORIAL. Watch and be amazed, oh boys and girls, I will do this in less than 100 words and there will be nary a cry about being "offended" or by making bogus challenges.

"Mr. Clements:

You state in your editorial, or seem to imply, that the Western civilizations founded the concept of human rights. But, a Persian ruler, Cyrus the Great, appears to have published a manifesto of human rights in 539 BC which guarantees religous freedom, as outlined here:

http://www.farsinet.com/cyrus/

How can you therefore make the claim that the Western nations developed the concept of human rights?"

Wow, less than 100 words, I provided a linked source and my reply even has a connection to John's original purpose regarding the EDITORIAL - the 300 Spartans.

{NOTE: I don't care if John answers this or not. I am providing an example of what I consider to be reasoned debate}.

So, as Stacy already said, don't jump to conclusions.