hand blows in kampfringen

[Jay Vail]

We’ve talked about kicks in kampfringen, but what about hand blows? They are there, and not only as a foil to illustrate a defense, but as a primary attack. For instance, the Codex Wallerstein shows various fist blows and several that appear to be palm heel strikes to the head. Then there is the controversial plate 142. This plate shows one fellow having caught another in a lower arm crank. His hand is poised open above or near the other’s neck. The text indicates that this is a hand blow to the neck. It appears to be none other than the “judo chop” or shuto -- the karate sword hand. Did the Europeans really know of this blow? It would appear so, for in Passchen’s fechtbuch (1659), he advocates an edge of the hand blow to the head, mouth and neck. Drawing 32. Passchen also shows the edge of the hand blow against the inside of the arm against a grab, drawing 21, and blows with the elbow, drawings 35 and 42 -- not to mention the ubiquitous front kick to the knee, drawing 38. The Gladiatoria shows a palm heel to the face as well. And throughout the books you can find parries to fist blows. Keith Myers has categorized these in his book.

Can anyone else think of examples of blows they have seen illustrated in kampfringen fechtbuchen?

[Casper Bradak]

The thigh throw universally shown is usually with a "handsword" strike to the neck. I'm certain I've seen clear evidence for it from ancient europe as well. It is a simple use of the hand, not confined to asia in the least.
The target dictates the weapon. That phrase includes hand positions, and is why you see the variety of them the fencing manuals. I've seen most of the hand positions I know of in the manuals, including punches, mostly palm heel strikes, hand sword strikes, claws, eye gouges, hammer fists, open grip strikes to the throat, etc.
The codex wallerstein describes hand parries as well.

[Gene Tausk]

Besides the sources you mention as evidence for the argument that Europeans had knowledge of the knife-edge hand blow, I would also argue that European cultures had knowledge of this type of strike as far back as antiquity. Vases can be found detailing pankration matches where the attacker is clearly using a knife-hand blow. The best example I can think of is a vase which can be found in the British Museum. I believe a picture of it is available on-line at Jim Arvanitis' website (sorry, don't have the link handy).

Any culture which develops high-level fighting techniques, as clearly did many European societies, would have knowledge of this valuable technique.

----->>>>>>>>>>>gene

[Jay Vail]

Gene, As far back as antiquity . . . I have not seen this evidence, but it would not surprise me one bit. I would believe that *all* the techniques we see illustrated in the fightbooks are ancient, far older than 600 years. For instance, I remember seeing a statute of a Greek wrestler from the classical era showing him in a posture that could be nothing other than a low front kick to the knee or leg. (Can’t remember the book where I saw the picture published, though, unfortunately.)

If you find any other evidence of such blows from classical or medieval sources, let me know. This is an interest of mine.

[Shane Smith]

There are really only a few ways in which the human body can move with mechanical efficiency and it seems reasonable to me to assume that the Asians would not be the only culture of fighting men in the world to discover that fact. Under stress a man will do what is necessary to keep himself alive.If the kick to the knee is all you can manage because your hands are tied up in grappling ,so be it! If you can't strike a straight reverse punch to the nose because your opponent is too close,a hammering blow or knife-hand blow using the side of the hand to the neck may be all you can manage because a circular technique is all you have room for! I believe that these kinds of techniques weren't shown or discussed much in the European Manuals and artwork becausethey were assumed by all to be common sense and therefore no explanation was deemed to be needed. Thats just my opinion,but I could be wrong(just ask my wife! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

[scott adair]

Shane,

I agree with your comment on mechanical efficency and the universality of fighting techniques. There are only so many ways the human body can be moved. It is not illogical IMO to think that a rear leg takedown was practiced in much the same way by medieval knights, samurai, fillipino warriors or american indians. This is the way one of my instructors phrased it. Hand position and entry might have subtle variations but the core was and always will be the same. The same goes for hand strikes. It seems that anytime I see something from an art that is truly unique it developed under an unusual set of circumstances. You seem to have found enlightenment and liberation from confined thinking. Enjoy it!

,Scott Adair

[Guest]

The use of hands blows in swordsmanship and when would you use it? Is that question first asked? I use hand blows when binding to shock my opponent to get him/her to loosen or to move them where I want or blind them and then follow up with a cut or a schnitt.

Such as if he/she was to bind up my sword then I would attempt to deliver a hand or foot strike to drive them away or free up my sword or get away. Such as the hand strike from JC video in the members section where he palms the entire face driving the head back.

Todd

[TimSheetz]

Right on, Todd.

I use hand blows in closing action, literally against the hands of the opponent to confuse their actions and slow them down so that my weapon gets into play before theirs.

tim

[Guest]

Hi Folks

The wole of Fiore Di Liberi is full of strikes and is detailed in the text with exact locations given. He shows several positions with blows ready to be done or in the process of being done. He also has "points of pain" and possible nerve grips. If you are looking for a full range of unarmed blows in wrestling, Liberi has them. it is a full system.

Hands, fists, thumbs, knees, kicks, nerve pinches, eye gouges, forearms, stomps, and a secret ninja powder for burning the eyes!!


All the best <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Col
ARMA Norway

[Guest]

Yes Fiore wasn't playing around. I beleive he says in Flos Duellatorum something to the effect that this is not the type of wrestling used for sport of fun, but out of wrath. It is definately about disabling or killing an opponent. I can't wait for a good, complete translation so ordinary meat-heads like me can study it in detail.

[Grant Hall]

Yes Fiore wasn't playing around. I beleive he says in Flos Duellatorum something to the effect that this is not the type of wrestling used for sport of fun, but out of wrath. It is definately about disabling or killing an opponent. I can't wait for a good, complete translation so ordinary meat-heads like me can study it in detail.

Hey guys, I was just wondering if anyone knows of any such translation for us "meat-heads"

Cheers, and God Bless!

[Jeremiah.Phipps]

A quick Google resulted in this. I'm no expert, but it looks like (at least) a good start.

- Jeremiah

[Ken Dietiker]

A quick Google resulted in this. I'm no expert, but it looks like (at least) a good start.

- Jeremiah

As you say, "it's a good start". But it is also incomplete, only covering the grappling and dagger sections for the most part. I've already found some errors and inconsistencies, as well as some quite arbitrary word choices (my opinion anyway). So if you use it, take it with a grain of salt and don't read too much into it. Of course, since this particular forum is for the unarmed combat related stuff, that should be enough for now to get you started.

BTW, here's an updated link:
http://www.the-exiles.org.uk/fioreproject/

There are several other individuals and groups working on new translations and/or interpretations at this time (ARMA and non-ARMA), on both the Pissani-Dossi and the Paul Getty manuscripts (myself included). But it's a long process to do it right, so could be a while. Unfortunately, when all is said and done, there will eventually be several to chose from, and they won't be exactly the same.

Could get quite interesting...

[Corey Roberts]

Question; has anyone taken a systematic approach at consolidating the striking techniques found in the manuals?

[Shane Smith]

Question; has anyone taken a systematic approach at consolidating the striking techniques found in the manuals?

I'm actually working on that a bit of late. My wonky knee makes my armoured work much less stellar than it once was so I'm looking into areas where I can still re-consruct in relatively untouched areas of our art within my limits.


Edit* Wow, talk about thread resurrection...and after six years!!!