Master Cuts in sparring, and the Samurai mastercut

[JeanryChandler]

Ok mike, but are you saying that you can call on your entire training repertoire in a full speed sparring bout?

Jeanry

[Shawn Cathcart]

I think your first impression was correct. It is a little more difficult to counter cuts rather than to preempt them. By this I mean its always slightly harder to be the one having to react in the after. Ringeck obviously prefers that you give the strike, using the meisterhau to teach you how to break the different guards. These don't often succeed in the first blow, however what they do very well is give you a safe way to attack a guard which is what trips up most people when they first try fighting more aggressively. In my opinion meisterhau to the guards basically are to be taken, ok, it might get through and hit him, but moreso it breaks the guard by forcing him on the defensive, leading to a bind, and from that bind and in the before time, here is a list of things you can do. The most difficult aspect of striking first and aggressively is always that person that merely voids out and targets your hands and forearms. The meisterhau fall on such an angle to the respective guards they break that this becomes more difficult, and thus safer for you.

I think it makes sense however that he concentrates on how to use the meisterhau as a counter because timing and technique need more explanation than using them as a preemptive strike.

Also to a large extent, not being able to use certain techniques in sparring comes from the limitation of padded swords. While they do many things well, they do not very accurately give a proper feel for binding and winding that you get with blunt steel, or even well made aluminum wasters. We've also found that peoples reactions vary. People seem much more aware of having lost the initiative when using a blunt steel blade than with a waster or padded sword. People actively will flinch in an attempt to bind, rather than just slam through with a cut as they likely would with a padded sword.

As for ringen am schwert, in my opinion people generally are trying to hard to attempt such techniques. Thus leading them to attempt to use them in situations in which they are not possible or viable and therefore giving the impression they do not work. It also somewhat relies on someone fighting with proper technnique, holding their ground when necessary, entering into the closer range fights with binds. I am able to use it very easily against particularily new to intermediate students who will rush in after a bind, without having much knowledge of what to do. This usually makes it quiet easy to bind the blade or hilt with my hand, or to seize an arm, what have you. Interestingly enough its often the fact that I'm giving them a flurry of cuts to different angles that prompts them to try and bind and rush in out of desperation. Those with a higher level of skill generally are less accomodating <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />.

[Stacy Clifford]

The more I learn and train, the more I am convinced that timing is critical. The fighter who has trained his techniques to the point where they are instinctive, and can execute them at the exact time necessary has a significant edge over someone who may know more moves but has to think about them. It's no accident that the indes concept is emphasized by the German masters.

I agree, technique is nothing without good timing, but don't forget range and perception. If you can immediately sense where your opponent is temporarily undefended and you can reach that spot, then you can use any technique you want to get there first. The real key to me seems to be the ability to make the most efficient transition between attacks and defenses to each quarter and to be able to execute those transitions with the least possible amount of thought. If you are executing a zornhau that appears to be successfully defended and your brain perceives "open down left," theoretically that should be all the thought you need for your hands to zwerch to the lower left quarter from where they are now. You shouldn't have to decide among the three possible options you have to reach that quarter, your brain should pick a direction and your body pick the fastest way it can get there in the given situation. As everybody already recognizes, only lots of training and lots of fighting will get you to that point.

What I see in general is that it's rare that you can plan out an attack with more than two moves and have it work, if you can even get past two. The purpose of learning techniques is not so much about creating opportunities as it is about being able to take advantage of the opportunities that your brain perceives in the most efficient manner. That doesn't mean you can't plan and create opportunities, it just allows you to react quicker and more appropriately with less processing if and when the plans go bad. What's important is perceiving the situation correctly, and hopefully not being too easily fooled.

[JeanryChandler]

Wow, great posts both Stacy and Sean. You have both given me much to think about, I think you are right on target.

Also to a large extent, not being able to use certain techniques in sparring comes from the limitation of padded swords.

true... but you should try one of my padded weapons <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree with yoru comments about binding and grappling, when it works and when it doesn't. I think I used to try to hard to do these and half-swording too... what I came to eventually understand was that they were simply part of the "tool-box", now when I see the real opportunity to use them I do. The thing is I'm interested in comparing notes as to how wide this window of opportunity really is.

This ties in with Stacy's comments about getting where you need to the most efficient way. I agree wholeheartedly, I think again, its a matter of having these moves in your repertoire to where you can use them.

I have to admit there are still moments in a fight when I'm sitting there going "@$#!@!... what do I do now!!?" I want to eliminate those moments!

I'll comment further after I think this through a bit more...



Jeanry

[Anthony Boyd]

It seems to me that when I find a technique that I cannot use well in sparring, it takes me about a year of experimentation and thought to figure out if I can learn to make it work. After a year or so has passed and it's still not working I feel less pressure to make it work. If it's something I really want to be able to do despite some physical lack, I will do whatever it takes to develop the missing attribute to facilitate the technique, but sometimes I just have to draw a line and move on to something else that needs attention.

In these situations everything needs scrutiny from the equipment, my understanding, my opponents, to my fitness.

[JeffGentry]

hey Guy's

You shouldn't have to decide among the three possible options you have to reach that quarter, your brain should pick a direction and your body pick the fastest way it can get there in the given situation.

I totaly agree with this, i would like to make an addition which is the hardest part, stay calm if you get rattled and think to much it will slow you down or make you freeze up to think.


Jeff

[Shawn Cathcart]

true... but you should try one of my padded weapons

I've heard good comments about them on here. Will perhaps have to try out your design one of these days when I get ambitious <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />.

The thing is I'm interested in comparing notes as to how wide this window of opportunity really is.

Whether the window of opportunity exists at all depends who you're sparring with. Many people, lack a good understanding of binding and winding, and so by default don't like to hold their ground, or stay in close to do blade work. They hit and retreat. In this case there really isn't much opportunity for grappling. In the opposite case some people charge in all the way without much of an idea of what to do. I'd argue this leads to simpler grappling actions like the leg breaks and what have you. I think the bind to the hands and forearms requires both fighers to commit to close combat, but not to give up trying to use the blade too quickly and just rushing in. Working the blade in close is difficult and very fast. Some people might have only one or two good reactions in close before they freeze up, or have to actively think of what to do next, which slows you down as has been mentioned.

It takes a lot of practice. I know its one of the main things I work on and try to improve. However, on some level, you need sparring partners that commit to that style of fight, or its really hard to practice it. If your sparring partners won't commit to a bind and attempt to work on the blade, then the opportunity for you to practice and hone those techniques is reduced.

As for the size of the window of opportunity I personally think its pretty small, or short. Working in close moves quickly and on some level rather frantically. I think it'd be pretty rare that you would pull of a completely textbook grappling technique. I think real world sceario's are a little more random and sloppy than that. But I think drilling the various grappling techniques gives you good reflexes, and good principles to work with in close. How they got into the position for a particular technique is far more enlightening to me many times, than the technique itself. You'll likely have to modify a technique slightly against a resisting opponent anyway. If you can't, you'll end up in trouble.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shawn

As for the size of the window of opportunity I personally think its pretty small, or short.

I agree the window is going to be small that is why you have to be able to concentrate and see and feel what is going on while not realy "thinking".

Working in close moves quickly and on some level rather frantically. I think it'd be pretty rare that you would pull of a completely textbook grappling technique.

I have done alot of whitewater kayaking so i think as far as the state of mind in a life threatening situation and "pulling off move's" i am qualified to comment on this as far as the mind set, I think that is were a good majority of thing's take place is in our head, Now kayaking we teach new people to roll there kayak in a pool, Not a big deal it is realy like a waster drill, They get good in the pool and so go to the river, The first time they flip we see them exit the boat and take a swim because in the river being upside down it is dark the water pull's at you and your paddle it is cold you bounce your helmeted head off a hard object, basicly you feel out of control and don't remember what to do because it feel's diffrent it realy isn't you think it is though, Your being overwhelmed, Eventualy you get accustmed to all this chaos and before long you don't even think about it, it just happen's you flip you roll up.

I think this is very much the same, I have seen guy's flip over smash there face on a rock as they flipped and roll up like nothing happened, only to find out they have a broken nose and busted lip bleeding profusley, if we drill these technique's and the principle's behind them, and keep tryting them in sparring eventualy they will just happen like the are supposed to because we will have a feel for them in all situation's.


I realy think that a majority of what we do involve's being able to remain calm and focused, and do what you want when you want and not relying on what your opponent does, it's your fight not his.

Jeff

[Shawn Cathcart]

I agree the window is going to be small that is why you have to be able to concentrate and see and feel what is going on while not realy "thinking".

Nothing to disagree with there.

I realy think that a majority of what we do involve's being able to remain calm and focused, and do what you want when you want and not relying on what your opponent does, it's your fight not his.

I agree that with continued practice and drilling you more and more approach a level of reflex in order to on the fly execute techniques. And I agree its really about concentrating on your fight with less attention paid to what he's doing. However, my point was more that he will resist, sometimes in predictable ways, sometimes in rather random ways. You can still keep the initiative in the fight, however you must be able to modify some techniques on the fly. I think this particularily applies to grappling as something as small as not having an arm end up in a particular spot slightly changes a technique. I think it would be difficult to end up like depicted in the manual, all arms right where you want them, you in complete control and me with a dismayed look on my face <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Interesting thought. Last night at work we arrested a guy. I ended up using a throw/arm lock that I practice a LOT in class and in sparring. In class it works great. In sparring it works decently. On this particular guy it did work also...bu only barely.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron

Interesting thought. Last night at work we arrested a guy. I ended up using a throw/arm lock that I practice a LOT in class and in sparring. In class it works great. In sparring it works decently. On this particular guy it did work also...bu only barely.

The important thing is it did work, now you have a new experience in reality to relate to for the next time and it should work even better.


Jeff

[Matthew_Anderson]

Man that's cool! I wish my job involved grappling <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

It is pretty rare for me. Most of my job involves talking with people and doing various forms of paperwork. The hands on stuff with a resister isn't so common. Mostly after bar close or some bozo who just doesn't want to get arrested. Maybe once every other month or so. But I do train for such rare situations lest they arise and I am not ready for them. I think Aaron Pynenberg with his SWAT experience gets to use his skills more often than me. He could probably provide greater insight on what works and what doesn't and how training does (or does not) work in the real world.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hey guys, not just with SWAT, but I cover an area of our city covered in establishments which serve alcoholic beverages, so this is where most of my useage is employed. I was just trained as a DAAT-defensive and arrest tactics instructor, and can attest that whatever is simple and efficent works best. Tony Blauer's SPEAR system which converts the flinch response into an active offensive capability works best.

As a professional, trained with weapons and used to the possibility of dangerous conflicts which could result in serious injury or death to myself or the public, I often like to compare some of our training and tactical use of force with our historical ancestors in how they might have trained and lived.

I especially feel with the German tradition of offense over defense and other related tactical concepts as a direct comparison to our current thinking and use of force employment. I think in another post I mentioned the fact that we use the maximum amount of effort in any technique we employ to stop the subjects actions, quickly without protracted or prolonged engagements, which improve our chances of success.

In our world, Police Officers gennerally are reacting to suspects who dictate the fight, unless it is a SWAT tactical operation, but the Officer on the street is almost always reacting to what suspects actions are dictating-we like to say, they asked for a particular service, so we gave them the best service we could. You have to put yourself in the mindset of an Officer, who must decied that they cannot afford to spar with anyone, that is a "sports" model sparring scenario will not be most effective in ending the fight. It must be overwhelming, maximum effort, one or two techniques employed within the reasonable legal justification, and based on the suspects actions.

That is why I think WMA and ARMA methodology shares more in common with the military and Police training then with AMA, because the fight environment is not thought of as a comparison of techniques, as much as a real fight to the death, employing these techniques in the most efficient and effective way as possible. In other words, in WMA the techniques facilitate the end of the fight encounter. whereas in AMA it seems the the match exists to facilitate the techniques>?

[JeanryChandler]

What is AMA?

Jeanry