Albion sword edge damage

[Joe Fults]

David,

I guess I didn't do a good job of speaking clearly. I agree that a sword of that type should be up to the task. It just looks like the one in question may not be up to the task.

Or more to the point, I agree with you.

Regards,

[Alfred Wong]

Well. You can also read the thread in SFI, lots of reading but nice.

The edge issue is probably due to some fault in production. I believe that Albion had agree to replace LC's Brescia.

Everyone learnt a lot from this event. The discussion was hot and supporters were quite fanatic when talking about this. I would sum up some self-conclusion:

1. Swords are designed to cut meat and bone, not plate or metal. Cutting reasonable targets without damage to the blade is expected. A&A, ATrim, MartialArtSwords' sunflower, Tinker, and numerous other examples including cheap China made blades, would not have that serious serrated or damaged edge after cutting pork arm. Most sample require no edge sharpening after cutting at all. And lo, some are sharper than the Albion BS! The malfunction of the Albion BS is probably a mistake in production, *well*. For the Tinker custom Lance owned, with probably 52 HRC it went through waxwood, pork arm, leathered pork arm, tatami with sand (ew!) and other targets without damage to the edge. (For the evil sanded tatami, it went dull a bit.) Albion BS went dull after cutting naked pork arm, and serrated after cutting the leathered pork arm... it's a mistake in production, probably.

2. Pittings, bent tips, non-crisp taper and such flaws in blade, guard and pommel are historically accurate feature that add up unique characters to a sword. Of which I don't like it. Just MO.

3. Heat treat and a lot of other factors contribute to the blade's durability. Hardness is only one factor.

And so I make up my mind that I would like to have a sword using the newest technology in this era to create with positive historical features... Just MO again. I want performance so that I can cut happily.

Cheers,
Alfred <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Alfred Wong]

Also, while thinking why Lance's BS's pommel and guard was so soft that it can be scratched and dent so easily, I came across this page,

http://bladefittings.com/metalsandcon/WorkHardening.htm

Cold forge VS Casting, from Patrick Hastings' website (nice!)

Albion uses casting as I can remember.

Cheers,
Alfred <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[TimSheetz]

I had a very sharp, very hard sword edge take some damage from the bones of a deer's leg.

It didn't take too much - that is it still would have worked fine against other intended targets. Most notable was when the sword began to cut into the bone the leg moved offline and it did twist a tiny piece of the edge.

My sword was what I would call knife sharp and too sharp to expect battlefield results. The maker fixed and polished the sword for free.


Bone is harder than wood.

Tim

[John_Clements]

I must make this quick as this is moving in time for our new house and I am still struggling to stay on sabbatical.

Here’s some points to keep in mind:
No swords are indestructible. Are swords should be viewed as perishable.
Despite modern science, there is still considerable art to blade making. Fine sword reproduction is not an exact craft and never really was.
Even historical blades had flaws and are known at times to suffer damage against bones (even katana are documented for this).
We have to maintain vigilance and give feedback on performance to manufactures, but we must continue to educate ourselves about the real attributes of genuine swords and the true physical qualities of tempered metal in order to reasonably determine what the envelope for performance actually is.
This will all take time to learn how things work and what works best.

JC

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hey Guys:

It is helpful to realise that every major/popular modern swordmaker has had both some praise for examples of outstanding craftmanship and likewise chiding for at least one example of faulty craftsmanship, as reported by Armateers at this and/or other forums.

Said makers would include Atrim, Albion, Arms &amp; Armor, CAS Iberia, Del Tin, Hanwei, Raven, Tinker, and Windlass, and probably others whom I cannot recall at this moment. No maker should be regarded as *ex cathedra* when it comes to the difficult and admirable craft of swordmaking.

That said, it is also helpful to remind oneself that if one has a problem with the work of a given maker, then really all the complaining at either this fine forum, or at any number of questionable other forums, shall likely do one little good in gaining satisfactory resolution. It probably helps more to plainly and courteously address the maker itself, describe the situation, and try to work out a solution.

That is really the last I want to state regarding this topic specifically or in general.

Jeffrey

[Shane Smith]

A war sword should survive such a cut in my opinion as a fairly fast rule in the interest of intellectual honesty. I have been on record as criticising the swords of another maker for fragility.If this is anything other than an isolated incident, that makes me unhappy to hear.

As an aside, the Albion Baron is in my opinion what the Crecy Great Sword should have been. It is a wonderful piece!

[David Kite]

Jeff Gentry mentioned this earlier on, but I've got an Albion Solingen which was put through some hard target test cutting for purposes of a forthcoming review. It's been a number of years since I've handled an Albion 1st Gen Crecy, so I can't compare their sharpness BUT. . . my Solingen has what I consider a very fine edge (as an OT XII or XIV, it's a flesh cutter, so IMO the fine edge is acceptable). The targets were the flat of another blade, a steel buckler (which I suppose could double as testing against plate?), and a maile hood. The damage to my Solingen is significantly less than the damage appears to be on Bill's Crecy (from what I can tell from the photos). I have not had the opportunity to cut soft targets, but based on the results of the hard targets, I couldn't imagine much trauma except from a screwed up cut.

Tentative (read: not absolute) thoughts on the 1st Gen Crecy:

1) The sword was most likely made before Albion's collaberation with Peter Johnnson, and therefore arguably pretty early in Albion's learning curve,so IMO if the heat treat should have been better, Albion wouldn't have known any better at the time of the sword's making.

2) That individual sword slipped through quality control. (oops, but it happens)

3) The cut that caused the damage was bad. ie Bill just didn't have a good angle or the target moved or twisted while the edge was still in the bone. Based on earlier points in this discussion, even the "best quality" sword can be damaged.

4) Damage will happen. Based on what I can tell from the pictures, even though it really sucks to damage a really expensive weapon (like the Crecy or Solingen), the damage really doesn't seem that bad, and may not affect future cutting to a noticeable degree.

2 cents

David Kite
GFS, ARMA in IN

[Nathan Robinson]

Lances sword lost the very edge of his, the thread is at
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4091
and http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4150

They pretty much gave Lance a real hard time, for no more than reporting the Facts.

Please take a moment to read the topics again. Lance was not given a hard time. Lance was asked to put things in the proper context and consider more facts that were given to him. There were many times in this topic that Lance was thanked for reporting information. The fact that he was given further information on the subject, and the broader subject at hand, does not consititute being given a hard time. The reporting of information works both ways. It's super important that everybody in the related communities surrounding the study of arms understand the overall context of these things.

[Nathan Robinson]

But I still am failing to see how it is unreasonable to expect a 500 (or in Lance's case +1500) dollar sword to perform at the same level as a South American machette made from questionable metal with questionable heat treatment that I bought at Smokey Mountain Knifeworks for $5 plus tax.

And there's the problem. A machete and a sword are two completely different tools. If you have the expectation that your sword will perform like a machete, you're in for a great deal of disapointment. They're made for completely different purposes. If you have the expectation that a sword will perform like a cleaver, a paring knife, a screwdriver, or a paint scraper, you're in for a world of disapointment, too. Go buy a Del Tin blunt, or a Windlass product, or an Albion Squire Line or a Lutel with an axe edge and chop your sapplings and other items: you'll get a much more compatible result to your machete with these products. Should you want a sword that reacts to conditions similar to historical swords, these products, nor your machete, would be a good choice for you however.

[Bill Welch]

I agree, but to expect a War sword to react like a War sword is not unreasonable. Please see the post-mortem bone as a test cutting medium. I believe that the Farensic anthropology deptment at UT may have a better feel for what to expect from "dead" bone and what not to.

And as far as Lance being given a hard time, I would not assume to speak for him, but to me several of the posts were aimed in his direction but not to him by name. So to me infering that he was what-ever was kind of chicken.

[Nathan Robinson]

I agree, but to expect a War sword to react like a War sword is not unreasonable. Please see the post-mortem bone as a test cutting medium. I believe that the Farensic anthropology deptment at UT may have a better feel for what to expect from "dead" bone and what not to.

For the record, the original sword on which Albion's Brescia Spadona is based is not really a war sword, per se.

I agree with you: it is absolutely reasonable to expect a replica sword, war sword or not, to perform as a historical sword of the same type would have. And that is the point to the whole discussion, in my opinion.

I don't care about dead bone or what to expect from it or not. I care about what to expect from a sword. I don't believe the anthropology deptment at UT will have any experience with swords or the expectations placed upon them.

Personally, I care about how historic swords react compared to new swords on the same materials. I think the people on the topic need to learn about historical swords and talk to people at museums, handle real swords and see the damage, read text about metallurgical details, listen to the 10 swordsmiths and what they have to say, talk to authors, etc. etc. The data is overwhelmingly telling us that using a historical sword on hard materials requires maintenance and/or repair. It seems to me to be common sense that a various swords are intended for various purposes. Further, it seems obvious to me that any sword is going to react different than other tools: cleavers, machetes, etc. All of these things are completely reasonable expectations of swords in my opinion.

I just happen to disagree with many of you about what to expect from historical swords and how they react to targets. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a sword, antique or replica, to show no damage or deformation of the edge upon hitting a hard target. A sword *can* be made to take no damage, but then it won't have the proper blade or edge geometry that replicates a historical sword of the same type. In these cases, is it still a sword? Perhaps. Is a crowbar a sword? How about a cleaver? How about a Machete? I don't think so. It's a game of compromises: these things cannot be made to do all things in all situations. Good luck with Liechtenauer while using a sword sufficiently built up to withstand this use without showing signs of damage. Good luck cutting into fabric and slicing skin with such swords. Good luck having the same mechanical properties of such a sword when it's been changed in such a ways. To think that these multiple variables don't all add up and change the end-result is simply not a reasonable expectation, in my opinion.

And as far as Lance being given a hard time, I would not assume to speak for him, but to me several of the posts were aimed in his direction but not to him by name. So to me infering that he was what-ever was kind of chicken.

Chicken? I don't think it's needed to put somebody's name in there since the posts are responding to him, and often quoting him. I'm not adding your name in here, but I think it's pretty clear who I'm typing to right now. Further, I don't think there's an inference, but if that's the way it's taken, I can certainly step it up a notch for the sake of clarity.

I think people have been pretty clear and to the point about everything. Myself, I think Lance's understanding of historical European swords is still "in the works" and this is something that I don't believe he's likely to deny. I think we're *all* learning about this sort of thing and that's why we have these discussions. We're all filling in the blanks and as we find out more, we discover more blanks.

I put up an entire site for the specific purpose of learning and discussing these things. Just like the situation with the sword: you can't have it both ways. There's no room for an exchange of information if one is then going to cry foul when somebody disagrees with another's position. We must be more adult and open-minded about this free-flow of information.

[david welch]

And there's the problem. A machete and a sword are two completely different tools. If you have the expectation that your sword will perform like a machete, you're in for a great deal of disapointment. They're made for completely different purposes.

Yes, not only do I understand, that was my point. My machete was designed, however haphazardly they "design" a $5 machete, to cut with. The sword wasn't.

If you have the expectation that a sword will perform like a cleaver, a paring knife, a screwdriver, or a paint scraper, you're in for a world of disapointment, too.

Agreed. However, I would expect a war sword to perform like a sword.

I would imagine that in history, if a knight used a war sword to cut off two of somebody's fingers ( the equivalent of our test cutting target) and broke his war sword, it might cause a problem for the maker of the war sword.

Especially if the make had advertised it as being a war sword. <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" />

Go buy a Del Tin blunt, or a Windlass product, or an Albion Squire Line or a Lutel

Actually, I went to the Blade show with $2500 in my pocket and permission from my wife to bring home anything off the Albion table that struck my fancy for that price, just off of Bill's recommendation. He was so sure he would be taken care of, he brought his sword with him in the trunk of his car. When I saw Bill get blown off with basically "sucks to be you, don't it", I came home and did buy a $100 Windlass. If there is no difference in performance... with the exception of what you say in your post, i.e.: a Windlass might actually be able to cut something and remain intact, I can't imagine why I would do other. I care about "well made" and "functional", and don't give a darn about "pretty".

Should you want a sword that reacts to conditions similar to historical swords, these products, nor your machete, would be a good choice for you however.

I am actually pretty sure, historically, swords were expected to cut stuff.

[Nathan Robinson]

Yes, not only do I understand, that was my point. My machete was designed, however haphazardly they "design" a $5 machete, to cut with. The sword wasn't.

What a screwed up comment. You're either being flippant and rude or showing a complete lack of understanding of the whole subject. I can't decide which, but I suspect it's both. Either way, you've shown it's worthless to have a productive conversation with you. I've put my effort in and now I'm done. I apologize for my intrusion. Enjoy.

[Shane Smith]

Keep it scholarly gentlemen and don't let your passion carry you to non-productive arguments. To say that Albions swords aren't designed to cut is demonstrably not true in the absolute sense to my mind. That said, I do agree that a war sword should be able to cleave any unarmoured target with no significant damage(subjective I know).

I have had very good luck with my own DelTins on even armoured targets and will vouch for the toughness of those that I own. I bought my 5143 from Albion around 4-5 years ago and while it's a bit heavy, it definitely gets the work done.

I continue to hope that the failure mentioned is an isolated incident. I own a Crecy and have a Sempach close to hand. I will be putting them to the test shortly and will report back.