Working Out in the Gym in order to fight better.

[Gene Tausk]

David:

I should have been more specific in my post. When we "go to the gym" in the modern context, usually people are going to work out in one of three ways: (1) weight training, (2) CV work; (3) combination of both.

Those that weight train are usually doing so for: (1) prevention of bone loss or some other reason recommended by their doctors; (2) bodybuilding; (3) assistance for the sport of their choice (eg "strength training").

The examples you provide, from what I can see (and I have seen those illustrations before as well), show people who are training in the warrior arts. In other words, a medieval exercise manual for warriors.

In addition, the illustrations you provide of course give examples of people "working out." In addition to these examples, there were specific academies dedicated to (obviously) fighting arts where, in addition to training with weapons, participants did exercises.

The point I was trying to make is that you do not have to lift weights to gain strength for fighting, whether armed or unarmed. The examples you give of "natural" weightlifting (I don't know what else to call it) and throwing stones, logs or whatever were done by participants who (obviously) did not have what we would label modern exercise equipment.

However, I submit to you that exercises such as throwing stones and logs can not only develop your strength, but also are more purposeful to learning how to fight with weapons, especially swords, than just weightlifting. I don't know if you were at the international event a few years back, but Bart gave an example of how throwing shoes can develop longsword skills. I still think it is a good exercise.

What I should have said is that I don't believe that someone who has huge muscles and can bench press 425 lbs. (on an off-day) is going to be able to swordfight any better than someone who does bodyweight exercises to develop strength (leaving aside all other considerations which are too numerous to list here).

However, don't misquote me. I NEVER said that our European ancestors did not "work out." I said they did not go to a gym to work out. As stated, I should have been more specific.

They certainly did not have to go to a gym, however, to get exercise. Not back in the Middle Ages anyway.


----------------->>>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader, Houston ARMA Southside

[david welch]

Tim and Gene:

I hope you don't mind if I go backwards... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gene,

I agree with everything you just said. Sorry about the mis-quote... I read what you wrote as

"our European warrior ancestors during the Middle Ages did not "go to a gym" to "work out"."

... not

"our European warrior ancestors during the Middle Ages did not "go to a gym to work out"."

If you see what I mean. I wasn't misquoting you on purpose, anyway.

Tim,

So a majority of the exercises are NOT lifting heavy weights.

Strenth is not the only thing important, but that doesn't make it not important. If a fight falls between two guys of equal skill and equal speed... my money is going on the stronger guy. And raw strength might not help you "sword fight" better, but if a guy a lot stronger than you closes on you and your sword fight turns into a wrestling match it will matter then.

Anyway... maybe not "the majority"... but some are. My complaint is really just with the idea that you should only! do body weight, or lift weights, or only florish, or only whatever... the best idea is to have a good well rounded routine of strenth, endurance and flexability.

I still think mostly there is a lot more in agreement here than not.

[TimSheetz]

Hi Dave,

Right, we agree, strength is important in the training regimen, but I think I can get the strength I need for what I do without lifting heavy weights with fewer reps.

Peace,

Tim

[Aaron Pynenberg]

ohhh no- this argument again!!!- Just kidding, all great points here. Something else though that's interesting from that picture is that the mere size and bulk of the heavy object being lifted also effects the purpose of the evercise. Easiest way to think about it is by watching "strongman comps" these guys hoist, push/pull and carry weighted OBJECTS which are much diffrent that a barbell or dumbell which is designed TO BE lifted.

In hoisting the irregular shaped objects/ core muscle strength or skeletal muscle muscle groups and things like balance and speed as well as conditioning play huge parts in the movements- picture a guy pulling a huge tire up/ then pushing it over again and again etc vs. a guy doing a couple sets of squats- huge diffrence in the muscle recruitment etc......

Kettlebells vs. Dumbells again big diffrence in the skills needed to manipulate said objects- the pictures of the knights in training are showing these "strongman" type of feats of strength in my opinion, and not the static lifting something to make the muscle structures larger kind of lifting and no one is going to tell me that they didn't know the diffrence because I have a feeling they did- Aaron

[Dan Sellars]

Hello all,

I'm new here and don't actually practice WMA, but find the whole subject very interesting.

Anyway back on topic have you seen this web site CrossFit, from what I've seen on their page it seems to fit with what alot of you are saying.

I hope that it is of interest.

regards,
Dan.

[R.J. Stringer]

Yes, you will fight like you train. Problem is...so will your opponent, and if you go into it thinking "I'll have this over in a jiffy" and your opponent is endurance trained with a decent defence..Your big, aggressive arse will likely be thrashed.

Be strong, be fast, be adaptable, and equally important;be able to hold your water for a few minutes.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Dan, thanks for the Crossfit website link, i have spent a few days checking it out and I like it quite a bit- cool stuff thanks again, Aaron

[Justin Lompado]

"but Bart gave an example of how throwing shoes can develop longsword skills. I still think it is a good exercise."

Gene,

Could you elaborate on that shoe-throwing excercise? Meaning, describe what to do and the function/prupose. Not to be off topic, but it sounds like an interesting and convenient way to develop skills, as you said.

[Jake_Norwood]

It's a two-handed shot-put with a medicine ball or stone (at the International Event in 2003 Bart had people use their shoes). Essentially you hold the "stone" in "vom tag" over the shoulder and then throw it with a shove forward. This is similar to the motion used to make a zornhau and it strengthens the same muscles.

I do it with a medicine ball.

Jake

[Justin Lompado]

Thanks for the reply

[LynGrey]

It's a two-handed shot-put with a medicine ball or stone (at the International Event in 2003 Bart had people use their shoes). Essentially you hold the "stone" in "vom tag" over the shoulder and then throw it with a shove forward. This is similar to the motion used to make a zornhau and it strengthens the same muscles.

I do it with a medicine ball.

Jake

Actually if you really really wanna make a killer work out. Pick the medicine ball up and Hoist it over your head and slam it into the ground... pick it up.. toss it to your righ tnow.. then the left.. then over your back... do this for about 2 minutes.. great core workout for explosive strength training.

[Jake_Norwood]

That does sound pretty good. I'll try it out.

Jake

[LynGrey]

That does sound pretty good. I'll try it out.

Jake

Its also pretty good for venting some frustration... just make sure you aren't on the second floor of an apartment doing it =)

[JeffGentry]

It's a two-handed shot-put with a medicine ball or stone (at the International Event in 2003 Bart had people use their shoes). Essentially you hold the "stone" in "vom tag" over the shoulder and then throw it with a shove forward. This is similar to the motion used to make a zornhau and it strengthens the same muscles.

I do it with a medicine ball.

Jake

Actually if you really really wanna make a killer work out. Pick the medicine ball up and Hoist it over your head and slam it into the ground... pick it up.. toss it to your righ tnow.. then the left.. then over your back... do this for about 2 minutes.. great core workout for explosive strength training.

You can also do this with a jump as you slam the ball or put a target on a wall 8-10 feet high and jump and throw the ball up at the target and if you vary the weight of the ball it is a great work out.

Jeff

[LynGrey]

It's a two-handed shot-put with a medicine ball or stone (at the International Event in 2003 Bart had people use their shoes). Essentially you hold the "stone" in "vom tag" over the shoulder and then throw it with a shove forward. This is similar to the motion used to make a zornhau and it strengthens the same muscles.

I do it with a medicine ball.

Jake

Actually if you really really wanna make a killer work out. Pick the medicine ball up and Hoist it over your head and slam it into the ground... pick it up.. toss it to your righ tnow.. then the left.. then over your back... do this for about 2 minutes.. great core workout for explosive strength training.

You can also do this with a jump as you slam the ball or put a target on a wall 8-10 feet high and jump and throw the ball up at the target and if you vary the weight of the ball it is a great work out.

Jeff

well this takes away from the core and focuses more on the legs and arms... which is less of a nessicity for striking.