Fighting against the peasants.

[david welch]

This weekend we had some brand new people show up to see about the ARMA. This was the first time I have had a chance to spar with someone that is untrained after we have worked on our new stuff here. I was basically invulnerable... they couldn't get close to hitting me, I could just void whatever they tried and hit them at will.

But what really got me thinking was with the younger one. You could tell he was actually afraid. I would yell at him right before I attacked, and got a big advantage when he jumped back.

Now, these are some good guys, and I can tell they will grow out of this pretty fast. But I wonder how much they counted on this kind of reaction on the medeaval battlefield? If you are a knight wondering around, the trained guys might be intimidated... but the peasants are going to be terrified of you. You are going to be the scariest thing they have ever seen. Did any of the masters fighting work on the expectation of pure terror from their enemy?

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee

P.S.
LOL! I just through this again, and I want to make absolutely sure it was understood that I am not calling my new guys peasants! It is just that they got me thinking about the difference in skill levels in historical warfare.

[Joachim Nilsson]

LOL! I just through this again, and I want to make absolutely sure it was understood that I am not calling my new guys peasants! It is just that they got me thinking about the difference in skill levels in historical warfare.

ROTFL! That was my initial reaction actually! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't know about any expectations from the Masters, but according to Olaus Magnus in his History of the Nordic Peoples from 1555, the peasants here in Sweden trained on a regular basis with spears, axes, swords etc. Be aware though that the late medieval/early renaissance peasants and their situation and place in society differed somewhat from their contemporaries in, for instance, England.

EDIT: I should have provided a proper quote too.

“When the commoners of the locality thus have assembled, the sensible sheriffs present themselves without delay to partly show what is to be done, to partly divide the horsemen and the foot soldiers in bigger and smaller divisions, give directions for the arrangement, deliver banners, describe the reasons for the war, promise rewards and booty for the victors, call attention to the enemies inconsiderate behavior and the damage, he has already done, and to lay in each and everyone’s hearts the necessity to protect their fatherly-inherited freedom. Through this quick performance they instill in all their listeners courage to avenge suffered wrongs, so much more willingly as these through exercises at home already beforehand have acquired the art to with javelins, arrows, slings and swords meet the enemy in combat, with which weapons they sometime or perhaps often enough have had the opportunity to destroy their enemy or send him running; and as the matters of warfare are concerned, they understand excellently to both mind themselves as well as to learn from others.”
-7th book, 6th chapter, page 299. [Translation done by me.]

Best,
Joachim

[Filip Pobran]

in case of peasant rebellions, no knight can scare peasant - he is fighting for life of his own and his family (+psychology of mass)

[Randall Pleasant]

David Welch wrote:
but the peasants are going to be terrified of you

In a real fight that is an assumption that can get you killed. There is an old saying that goes something like this, "Being known for having killed men means everything and yet it mean nothing." A man facing a known killer may indeed be terrified but the next man may not care.

[Filip Pobran]

...or go for all or nothing...

[Justin Lompado]

Filip,

I have to agree with you. The peasants, as we know, often were forced to defend their homes and villages from knights, and were definitley successful sometimes. The point made by David is an interesting inference, but I doubt that type of mindset was rampant amongst the peasantry. Of course, there would be some, especially children, who would be afraid of war. Still, we have to keep a few things in mind:

First, context is everything. People in medieval Europe were usually closer to war than we are, and in some cases wars fought against strategic towns would be commonplace. I'm not sure, but I can't help but think that most major towns had some degree of organization or plan they could put into action if they were attacked.

Second, discouting the martial effectivness of ordinary citizens, especially those of Western nations (well actually they were really the only "citizens" as we know the term at the time) can be a deadly mistake. I can't think of any better example of military dominance or civic militarism than ancient Greece (before the age of firearms). They are all the proof of "peasant power" anyone will ever need.

Remeber: Peasants + Polearms = Knights without limbs!

[Filip Pobran]

yes, that all depends of situation. in the situation above, where peasant duels the knight (sci fi <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), the peasant would be terrifyed =>> HE IS FIGHTING WITH THE PRO
but if he gave them oportunity to attack him all at once (there is allways more peasants than knights, or man at arms) he would probably end up on the floor (even he is a good trained fighter)

[Rod-Thornton]

Yep. I remember my first sparring session. The other new guy went first, and after seeing it, I stepped up to the plate a little nervous....well, axiety ridden....ok - scared.

Couple that with previous posts by our guys about how they overwhelm new folks, and you can imagine the results. I think it takes a helluva martial spirit (or stubborness) to overcome that initial experience if you receive such a pyche-out your first time. But, like all things, your training will also teach you to deal with that feeling as well. Hence the value of training often and with other (various) people.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

I lately read a book of teutonic knights of some english gentleman who's name I can't really remember, but he wrote that destroying villages was an often used terror-warfare in the medievals. The Teutons themselves took part in such undertakings in the north (we are talking 13th and 14th century). Mathias Corvinus was known to destroy villages which were helping the Turks. Of course this all was done in superior numbers, but I believe that peasants had much to worry about from the 12th up to the 15th century. They were uneducated, maybe not well trained in Martial Arts, knew IMHO not much about knights, their society, motivs, training and abilities. All the helmets are showing dreadful visages, non-human, unapproachable. The face itself is a communication channel, and most people react with fear if they face the failing of that channel. They project their greatest fears into the enemy, not knowing if he is exhausted, ill, hurt, brave or not, bloodthristy or fearful himslef.
I also belive the knights must have known a bit about human psychology, and knew how to use their appereance, and the few dreadful seconds the sheer horror of their bloody, grotesque armour caused.

With the new ideas, new firearms, the peasants and citisens maybe adjusted faster to the new battlefield than knights.

Szab

[Joachim Nilsson]

Szabolcs wrote:

I also belive the knights must have known a bit about human psychology, and knew how to use their appereance, and the few dreadful seconds the sheer horror of their bloody, grotesque armour caused.

In the, by me often quoted, book by Olaus Magnus from 1555 he makes a quick mention of how some generals and army commanders were in the habit of sending out a party of scirmishers dressed in animal hides to scare their enemy:

"They further encourage them not to be frightened by the enemy’s dreadful war-cry or horrible appearance. For these are in the habit of at the moment of attack send out a disordered body of warriors ahead of the main army, who hide their shining armors beneath a cover of hides. In the same way appear the highwaymen here and there down in Germany,, in that they, when they are out to rob merchants, carry black, pitched armors; whereby more will be said in another context."
--10th book, 20th chapter, page 473 [my translation]

Although he is discussing general army tactics, and not specifically thos eof peasants, in this particular passage it's still an interesting quote.

[Randall Pleasant]

Szabolcs Waldmann wrote:
I also belive the knights must have known a bit about human psychology...

I think this might have gone both ways. Knights may have been more educated and more trained but that is not the same thing as being smarter. My gut feeling is that peasants knew many ways in which to push a Knight's button in conflict and other social contexts.

[Matt Bryant]

I wouldn't trust that a peasant would be scared. I would avoid being cocky in any encounter, but if you can intimidate him, great. But don't count on it.

My first time sparring was with Ernie Perez. Ernie has a disquieting way of charging (loud vocalization and flurry of unpredictable blows), and I admit that I was not comfortable with the state of things. I decided, though, that because he was obviously better than me that I had to go all out. I did rather well against him that day; a little better than I have done since, I think.

You can never know what someone's reaction will be, and I think it is a good idea to listen to Master Liechtenauer when he says:

"Therfore in all swordplay someone who strikes will often defeat a Master if he is bold and can gain the Vorschlag (First Strike)..."

and:

"So... it often happens that a peasant will beat up a good master if the peasant does the [Vorschlag] and boldly pushes forward."

[Randall Pleasant]

When steel meets steel the one thing that a knight had over a peasant, the one thing that a knight could trust his life to, was his training. That is why he, unlike the peasant, was a martial artist!

[Andrew Adams]

“One man defending his home is worth ten paid mercenaries. The Crusades taught me that.” (Kevin Costner, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves)

This quote is wrong. Battle after battle of the Crusades proved that a small number of heavily armored knights could take on huge numbers of cotton clad levied soldiers. History teaches us that a small elite force can take on astronomical numbers. Ever hear of the 300 Spartans? Or someplace called Bastogne? Whether you’re discussing Egyptian Charioteers, Medieval Knights, or Special Operators, training makes up for numbers. Remember when discussing peasants they have little or no training, no effective weapons or armor, and are probably starving. A peasant doesn’t have the right to bear arms. There is a huge difference between a free man and a peasant. Most people in Medieval Europe were peasants. People of the “middle” class were few and far between. A knight or even soldier will be bigger and stronger than your average man and will have been training for many, many years. William Wallace wasn’t a peasant who came out of obscurity but was the younger son of a knight. As such he came from the martial-classes and had rights, privileges, diet, training, and genetics above and beyond the common man. You can’t apply 21st century US circumstance to 12th century European ones. Peasants weren’t out in the fields from sunup to sundown swinging an axe against opponents armored or otherwise. And they weren’t hunting through the forest fighting off boars, bears, and robber knights. They were out in the fields toiling and laboring suffering from not enough to eat and the latest outbreak of whatever disease was sweeping across the countryside. When the soldiers and knights from a rival lord came to raid the peasants ran and hid. Those that stood and fought were chopped down their blood fertilizing the soil for next years crop.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Wow that was awesome <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Truly, respect!

One thing should probably be done sometimes in the future: a collection of rights to carry arms throughout the ages. There were times the HFechtmeister could teach villagers and citizens, for weapons were allowed between towns for protection. But where? And when? This whole issue could be looked upon with a greater perspective if we - if I - knew if a knight could actually meet anybody in the lands who was able to vield a weapon professionally. That anybody can chop and hack and stomp is no question.


Szab