Thermopolye

[Martin_Wilkinson]

Your right, in Greece more people are probably more familiar with Thermopylae, but most of the world is more familiar with the Alamo, probably has something to do the John Wayne movie.

Martin.

[Axel Pettersson]

As being neither american nor spartan I must admit to first learning about ancient greek history before 19th century Texas caught my eye <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> . Both are very spectacular incidents though, and I have asked myself countless "what if's" concerning both of them (perhaps one or two more when having Thermopylae in mind). Will try to find that book, Jeanry.

[Logan Weed]

Being American I find it interesting to have learned of Thermopylae first <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Stacy Clifford]

In Texas we usually learn about both battles at about the same time. A monument stands at the Texas state capitol inscribed as follows:

Upon the east side of the obelisk is inscribed in raised characters: `To the God of the Fearless and Free is dedicated this Altar made from the ruins of the Alamo.'

“Upon the south side is the following inscription: `Thermopylae had her Messenger of Defeat; but the Alamo had none.'

“Upon the west side is the following: `Be they enrolled with Leonidas in the Host of the Mighty Dead.'

“Upon the north side is the following: `Blood of Heroes hath stained me; let the Stones of the Alamo speak that their Immolation be not forgotten.' ”

I just finished reading "Gates of Fire" (wonderful book) and I'd have to say the Thespaians and the Texans had a great deal in common.

[Filip Pobran]

OK. here we go...


my source is herodotus himself. i shall state the number of paragraphs in his work so you can read it in language that suits you best, or even the original.


the number of persians:

herodotus, counting, came to number of 2 641 610 men under arms (asian and european combined) [VII,185] and whole army, including logistics (cooks, drivers, shepards, sailors, etc.) counted - 5 283 220 men [VII, 186]

the number of greeks
before Leonidas sent them home
300 heavely armed spartans (helots not included)
1 000 tegeians and mantineians (each gave 500 men)
120 from Orhomenos from arcadia
1 000 from other towns of arcadia
400 from corynth
200 from phyliunt
80 from mycenae

700 thespians
400 thebans
[VII, 202]


Lokrans from lopunt (number not stated - whole army)
1 000 phokydans (they came after being assured that it was man they fought, not a god)
[VII, 203]

after Leonidas sent them away
only the thespyans (700) and the thebans (400) stayed with lacademonians (300)

thebans were held against their will, since lacademonians considered them hostages, because theba didn't had clear aleagance toward the greeks
[VII, 222]

yet here, the number exceedes 300. now the sum is 1 400 counting only spears, because total body-count at the end of the battle was 4 000 of greeks [VIII, 25], and 20 000 of barbarians [VIII, 24]

conclusion
when we do the math, it is obvious that helots weren't counted as hoplites, since they were just slaves - helpers, carriers and such. but disregarding this, since helots weren't as capable as hoplites, the sole number of hoplites was allmost 5 times bigger, than the 300 stated above.


herodotus himself doubts that the number of the persians is true, when he counts the amount of wheat needed to feed that army [VII, 187]

[Gene Tausk]

Filip, I am having a hard time following your logic here. You said in an earlier post that you believed that the Greeks encountered a reconnaisance force from ther Persians and this is the force that was defeated at Thermopolye. I don't see any support for this position in your latest post.


--------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Filip Pobran]

first, i wanted to make it obvious that perzians didn't fight against only 300 greeks

second - the majority of the army was going around the passage. these were sent just to "take care" of greek forces in the passage. there was also another part of persian army that in the same time took care of another flank (i don't remember against who exactly they fought. i know that it was on some hill).

i can state paragraphs of that too. if you want me to do more job... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jay Vail]

The signal question you must ask yourself is: do I have the courage to do what they did? Who does today to defend democracy and the West?

[Gene Tausk]

"second - the majority of the army was going around the passage. these were sent just to "take care" of greek forces in the passage. there was also another part of persian army that in the same time took care of another flank (i don't remember against who exactly they fought. i know that it was on some hill).

i can state paragraphs of that too. if you want me to do more job... "

Yeah, why don't you do that, since you keep on saying that you will? That would be nice.


-----------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Filip Pobran]

ok. i will.

[:grumbling goes away and searchs in the book:] <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />



about xerxes sednding small numbers of soliders into thermopolye hoping that greeks will retreat: VII 210-212


about fights on the mountains against phokidians (he didn't succed to surprise them): VII 215-218


i am tired a bit of this

[Andrew Adams]

Sorry I never followed up with any more on this topic. I've been very ill for a while now. Re-reading the "facts" I listed above after doing some more research my memory infact once again proves to be good. Maybe some of the numbers are a little off but the essential facts are all right. A small group of elite soldiers can defeat vastly superior numbers.