Question: The Exhaustion Factor...

[s_taillebois]

M. Dexter, Good observation.
Other factors in the sieges related to the campaign seasons. If a attacking army couldn't win by fall, they usually had to encamp. Usually the best they could do, was loot the surrounding countryside and try to keep supplies or relief from reaching the beseiged. (During the 100 years war...one of the reasons the English were so hated by the French populace, is the need the English had for winter feed for their horses, they weren't averse to using the food the French towns had laid aside to feed themselves through winter) In general movement in the winter was problematic for medieval armies. It also wasn't uncommon for the lower nobility, to specifically request beforehand from their lord(s)...how long they did have to hold out in a siege. In some medieval sieges, the attackers only needed to besiege long enough for the encircled aristocrat to honorably discharge his obligation. The commoners caught in these situations, very rarely did anyone care what happened to them.
However, by the period which this discussion first alluded to, the trebuchet was in common use, and the bombard and petards were also becoming available. So the castles were not quite the obstruction they had been earlier. And early on, often the mere word of a bombard being brought in, was enough for many strongpoints to surrender. Apparently not that much more destructive than the trebuchet, but bombards were the terror weapon of the time.
And obviously, in a besieging of a castle...the arbalest/longbow contingent really came into their own. So, a different manner of fatigue there, more a case of wondering if some random shot from the walls was going to bring one down.
Both Joan Pouselle and Richard 1st, had been hit under those circumstances. Wounded d'Arc, killed Richard.

[M Wallgren]

Yes we do!

check this video out! Second from the top. Klick on pic to download.

http://www.arma.se/video.html

[Will Adamson]

I just tried your videos but I'm getting a "not found on server" message.

[Bill Welch]

Will Adamson wrote,
"Which brings me to a new question related to this. What was the sports drink of the time? (Whatever time that may be.) I know the Greeks and Romans watered down their wine, and I'm sure some sort of mead or beer was invibed in later periods. Water is really the best thing, but sanitation can be a problem."

Hey Will that is presisly why they mixed water with wine, or other spirits, was for the sanitation problem.

Now I am not saying that they knew about germs, what I am saying is that the tradition probably started by people noticing that someone that mixed spirits in their water did not get sick.

So it was a magical or spiritual thing that protected you. Even if they did not mix the water into their wine, but instead drank very thin (high water low alcohol content) wine, or beer.

Well thats my two sense worth anyway.

[Jean-Luc Ancelin]

About drinking while on the battlefield :

[from memory only, it has been some time]

I read in a history book I do not own anymore an account of a battle between two parties of travelling knights, one party of French, the other hailing from various parts of Europe. The two parties basically agreed on some self-regulated battle. A few (a handful) were killed. I cannot remember who "won". There was a total of thirty knights involved, and this battle is remembered as "la bataille des trente" (the battle of the thirty). One of the French knights by name Beaumanoir, complained repeatedly of thirst saying "j'ai soif, Dieu que j'ai soif" (I'm thirsty, God I'm so thirsty). One of his mates told him : "Bois ton sang Beaumanoir, la soif te passera" (drink your own blood Beaumanoir, your thirst will be quenched). And from then on, the Beaumanoir family motto has been "Bois ton sang".

Just your little evening story. Now you can sleep <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JL

[Will Adamson]

I've also read that the wine was somehow condensed so as to be able to make it possible to ship more product. Kind of like a classical 'from concentrate'. Not really sure how much evidence there is for this practice though. The reason you posed for dilution and the one I just stated could be a kind of chicken and egg sort of question. But they could actually both be right.

The reason I posed the question really was to see if anyone knew about a connection between drinks and early performance enhancers. I'm mainly thinking of honey for its sugar. Did they notice what we call a sugar high? Coffee has also been considered a performance enhancer. Although drinking it in the middle of a duel or battle wouldn't be what I call refreshing.

[Will Adamson]

Actually, I'm not sure I can sleep after that image. It kind of makes my swallowing my own sweat and snot in the midst of hockey games seem down right civilized.

[Jean-Luc Ancelin]

To remain centered on the thread, here is my half-cent :

in the course of my Tai-Jitsu training (think Jiu-Jitsu or Krav Maga and you wont be far), we used to do this drill : one defending in the middle of four or five others. The others would attack each in turn, there were usually mostly clinching/grappling, throws, locks, chokes and the like. The defender would have to escape or put to submission or somehow neutralize their attackers each in turn. Even with only very light contact, this is fairly tiring. A full one minute like this feels like it will never end, and I was a fit 19 year old stud at the time.

I would dare say, and I encourage others to give their own estimates here, that after a minute, you would start making serious mistakes. And after four or five you could very well drop or simply fail to act. This is with young fit people. Maybe you could stretch these figures with intensive training, but anyway, for a continuous high-speed, high-intensity activity like close-combat, a few minutes is probably a human limit. Adrenaline has a short-term effect, in the order of a few minutes too, which probably indicates the genetic, built-in combat time limit that the human race is made for.

I insist on the continuous aspect here, the drill I described was made so to prevent the defender from having any kind of break. As soon as one attacker was down (or often just before), the next would jump in the fray. This was purposefully to disorient, tire and put some kind of constant pressure. Only a few seconds to catch your breath here and there can make a huge difference.

Think also of short-medium running distances like a half-mile, or one mile. This is a distance which you would be expected to run at very near top speed, and it lasts two, three or four minutes. This is another indication.

Think also how long a rope can you climb without stopping and without using your legs. This gives an indication of upper body muscle fatigue, swinging weapons around feels reasonably close to rope climbing for the purpose of this thread.

I believe these figures can be kept for a medieval man-at-arms with his gear, as most of them were probably fitter than I was at 19, so this would compensate for the weight of their equipment. Anyway, I would not believe anyone could hold for half an hour of -continuous- fighting for example. They would need some short breaks. I think the order of magnitude of a few minutes continuous fighting before becoming near useless is correct. Now what do others say on this ?

Again, just my half-cent.

JL

[Jean-Luc Ancelin]

Hey Martin, thanks for the link, looks great from the teasing still picture, but I cannot get the video, browser complains it cannot find it on server. Maybe a naming problem (there is a comma in the file name) ?
I would really like to watch it !

JL

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Jean-Luc.

American football players go for about two hours of intermittent strenuous activity in "armor," though not as much as a knight wore. I fought more-or-less nonstop (as did every other SFS) with a sword in-and-out of a mask for an hour. The mask made it harder, and I was in the sun, but it wasn't really a "problem," though I sure was tired.

Modern US Soldiers (again myself included) will march with a total of about 80 pounds of gear (including body armor) for up to 25 miles in some units (like mine), finishing the whole march in under five hours...that's running half of it.

Make no mistake, all of these things will wear you completely out, and you're right that fighitng multiple opponents non-stop will tank you out in 3-15 minutes, depending on how much of a stud you are...but they didn't fight that way back then if they could help it. Like modern battles it was probably a combination of sudden and very intense activity broken up by longer-than-you'd-expect periods of...nothing.

Jake

[Jean-Luc Ancelin]

Hello Jake,

Yes I understand what you are stating here. The activities you describe allow for some kind of rest, that is as soon as you can take a short break, the length of time you can manage goes longer and longer. We did the drill I described several times in a row, and it is true, as soon as you can catch your breath for half a minute, you can go for it again. And then it is moving more towards endurance and less towards anaerobic (sp ? I mean without oxygen) continuous strain. I believe we do agree, simply a real situation would very rarely be what I described "continuous" for long. Real situations tend to have, as you say, periods of "nothing" in the middle. That is what can make battles drag on for hours, or long forced marches possible, it is the half-run half-walk thing. And I think that we could make a difference between a full-speed sprint and a hard jog, too. I believe close combat is more like the former, there is not much room for taking regular breathing and making the whole effort regular and constant, as in long endurance runs.

In fact, I believe soldiers (like yourself and those in the past too) were, are and will be expected first and foremost to be endurant and strong (talking only physical here), hauling heavy gear quickly over long distances or for extended periods of time. The particular continuous extreme effort is probably not very realistic, however that is what I understood to be the initial question.

I would also point out the duration of boxing rounds, if I am not mistaken they are 3 minutes long, then there is a short break and they go at it again. And even with highly specialised athletes, you can see fatigue creeping in, both inside one round and from round to round.

It is interesting to see that you mention 3 to 15 minutes close combat, this can give us an appreciation of the difference between amateur like me (1 to 5 minutes) and dedicated professional.

By the way, Jake, I understand you have created a RPG system, I am highly interested in acquiring one copy, how could I do that ? Can you PM me please ? Thanks !

JL

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Jean-Luc.

The 3-15 minutes thing comes from lots of practice at it, and quite a bit of running-about for exercise. Even in that kind of a fight (or series of fights) there are pauses to catch your breath as you circle each other. Dodge about, or wait for one opponent to replace another. Actually flailing about non-stop for 5 minutes would be very difficult...but fighting is as much about minimalism as it is about athletics.

I recall a match where I had closed at the sword and gone to the ground with an opponent. He struggled and struggled and struggled and finally said, "let's call it a draw."

But I had been resting while he was struggling, and the fight was very suddenly over once I knew he was tired and I was not. Grappling...which can be, in my opinion, the most exhausting of disciplines, relies pretty heavily on knowing when to rest as part of your fight.

But I've grappled with breaks only every 15 mintues for about 6 hours in one day (after which, I will tell you, I was a broken man). Much of it is conditioning. Back in 2003 I could fence and fence and fence all day and I never felt "tired." But that's not true any more!

You have to condition yourself and pace yourself. I think that's what I'm trying to say. I'm sure they got it back then, too.

[OT]
As for my game...it's "The Riddle of Steel," availble through Driftwood Publishing at www.theriddleofsteel.net. There was a review of the game in France back in the summer of 2003 in Backstab magazine, though I'm not sure that they liked it as much as some of our American and Scandanavian reviewers did.

Anyway, I'm not formally involved in the company anymore (I sold in in late 2004 when I joined the Army), but they're still supporting the game with a lot of good material.
[/OT]

[Steve Ames]

Rest is good. I do a good bit of amateur kickboxing. Depending on the competition these are usually 2-3 minute rounds with 1 minute rest between. That minute of rest means all the difference.
A lot of MMA competitions have longer rounds. UFC is 5 minute rounds I believe and grappling is, IMO, way more tiring than standup fighting (where you are constantly taking little microbreaks between combinations and tossing a few jabs to rest up while making your opponent work by being defensive). MMA competitors are often in great shape and they are still winded at the end of their matches.

A couple of times I hooked up with the local Bujinkan group during their Rondori(sp?) sessions where are like what Jean-Luc described. Yep. Very tiring even if the opponent hesitates a bit your still all tensed up expecting the attack. The exercise also teaches you that its better to be relaxed and efficient. This is important. In exercises such as running, swimming, etc... you learn to be relaxed and efficient and can then go longer/further. Same applies to fighting its just harder since your opponent is doing his best to make you tense and inefficient.

[JeanryChandler]

Same problem, no videos Martin...

[M Wallgren]

Sorry guys... we have a problem with our homepage at the moment!

I will dig deep in my archive and try to find the vid. Will post a new link as soon as I find it and share it on the net!

M