New book

[JeanryChandler]

Whats the story on this new book? Did y'all have to do with it? I really liked their first one.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1581604998/sr=8-2/qid=1149722004/ref=sr_1_2/102-4092612-7809748?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[Jake_Norwood]

There was quite a bit of discussion about it on the e-list a few weeks ago. I ordered one in March and still haven't had it delivered yet (which is pissing me off...).

Anyone got any comments about it?

Jake

[Brian Hunt]

I recently got my copy, and while I have not finished going through all of it yet, it is well done with the caveat that I have some disagreements with the sword and buckler section, otherwise really nice. Well worth the purchase.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeanryChandler]

Disagreements based on I.33 or on the Ringeck version? I was a bit confused by that. Is the sword and buckler in this book based on Ringeck / Lichtenauer tradition or on I.33 or on Italian masters?

JR

[Brian Hunt]

The sword and buckler in Lindholm's new book is from the 6 plays of ringeck/lichtenauer. IMO, the interpretation in this book doesn't show the buckler extended out far enough. If I was fighting someone with a sword and buckler, and they held their buckler that far back towards their body I would be saying thankyou for all the nice openings. A buckler creates a sort of cone of defense, the closer it is to you the smaller the area it defends. A good image of this idea is shown in Digrassi. http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/DiGrassi/03001070.jpg The basic sword work shown in the S&B section is all right, I just feel that their approach to the buckler side of the equation could be improved. As for the rest of the book, I am very happy with the information in it. The wresting, both armoured and unarmoured, and the armoured interpretations with spear and longsword are very well done.

hope this mini review helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Steve Ames]

BH, You should drop that last posting into the 'Review' section on Amazon. Good stuff!

[Mike Chidester]

Disagreements based on I.33 or on the Ringeck version? I was a bit confused by that. Is the sword and buckler in this book based on Ringeck / Lichtenauer tradition or on I.33 or on Italian masters?

The sword and buckler in the Liechtenhauer tradition is MS I.33. (Arguably that of the Italians, too, though I don't know nearly anough about that to make a solid case.)

[Jon Pellett]

The sword and buckler in the Liechtenhauer tradition is MS I.33. (Arguably that of the Italians, too, though I don't know nearly anough about that to make a solid case.)

How do you figure that, Mike?

Cheers

[Jaron Bernstein]

I am the farthest thing from a S&B expert, but to my knowledge the I-33 is a German manual from 1289. Ringeck is a German manual from the early 1400's if memory serves.

[Mike Chidester]

How do you figure that, Mike?

Because they're more or less identical (Identity of Indiscernibles and all that). MS.I33 is the sword and buckler tradition used by (almost) all of the German masters, just as it is the kampfringen of Ott the Jew that dominates the manuals for centuries after Liechtenhauer.

In addition, everything in the sword & buckler of MS I.33 has direct parallels to Liechtenhauer's longsword system. Given that the manual was written 60 years before Liechtenhauer was known to be teaching, the most logical reason for this is that Liechtenhauer either had access to a copy of the manual itself, or at the very least had access to sources familiar with the techniques in the manual. In either case, the system is the same. (Personally, I hope the former is true, since that would mean that there's a chance that other copies might be found someday.)

[Randall Pleasant]

Mike

In my heart I want to agree with you. However, we have to keep in mind the difference between a correlation and an association. Finding similar terminology for similar techniques is a really strong correlation, but it is not proof of a direct association. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> I do look forward to such proof.

[Mike Chidester]

Well, don't worry, you'll get your proof eventually. I forget sometimes that I have a different understanding of MS I.33 than most people (even ARMA members), being a practice partner of Stew.

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Mike,

just to play devils advocate, explain the differences between Talhoffer's sword and buckler and the MS.I33. Specifically the seperation of the sword and buckler found in Talhoffer compared to the non-sperated techniques in the MS.I33.

Interested in what you have to say.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Randall Pleasant]

Mike wrote:
I forget sometimes that I have a different understanding of MS I.33 than most people (even ARMA members)...

Another assumption?

[Jon Pellett]

Hello Mike

Interesting. I know little of I.33 and less of Lignitzer, but it seems to my untrained eye that there are some differences as well as similarities.

For one, Lignitzer likes to cut the legs (or stab to the groin in one case) after drawing a high defence, while I.33 almost always attacks the head - in fact I don't recall seeing a single attack to the lower openings.

Also, the manner of binding - I.33 seems to strongly bind the BG's weapons down (like Fiore breaking the thrust) whereas Lignitzer is attacking the man and not the blade (or at least that is the impression that I get).

What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers