Foot sweeps

[Will Adamson]

I was going through the Codex Wallerstein yesterday and it occured to me that in many of longsword plates there is mention of throwing the man to ground, but no mention of how to use the legs toward that purpose. The plates show getting a foot behind the other guy, but not really what to do with it. I'm assuming it would be a push and pull sort of arrangement that would depend on how the arms were tied up and what direction you could pressure the upper body. In my previous martial arts training we were taught not to hook legs back to back because you could end up breaking one or both of each other's legs.

This explained more in the grappeling section?

Also, does anyone have a favorite technique for taking someone down who is much larger than they are? David Welch and I had one pretty good exchange where I pretty much just tackled him when I found myself in a bad position. Being new to this type of sparring I tried to make sure he was ok since I landed on top of him, whereupon he whacked me up side the head!

[Gene Tausk]

I was going through the Codex Wallerstein yesterday and it occured to me that in many of longsword plates there is mention of throwing the man to ground, but no mention of how to use the legs toward that purpose. The plates show getting a foot behind the other guy, but not really what to do with it. I'm assuming it would be a push and pull sort of arrangement that would depend on how the arms were tied up and what direction you could pressure the upper body. In my previous martial arts training we were taught not to hook legs back to back because you could end up breaking one or both of each other's legs.

This explained more in the grappeling section?

Also, does anyone have a favorite technique for taking someone down who is much larger than they are? David Welch and I had one pretty good exchange where I pretty much just tackled him when I found myself in a bad position. Being new to this type of sparring I tried to make sure he was ok since I landed on top of him, whereupon he whacked me up side the head!

Not sure what you mean by "hooking legs back to back" so I won't attempt to answer it.

I was taught the following method for a simple footsweep (and their are many variants of this technique out there). Stand facing your opponent. Grab your opponent's right arm at the wrist with your left hand. Step 45 degrees forward and to the left of your opponent with your left leg while simultaneously lifting opponent's arm. Now place your right leg next to your left leg. You should be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with your opponent. Place your right hand on opponent's right shoulder. Now, place your right leg behind opponent's right leg. Now, extend your right leg up, straight, at waist level. Simultenously sweep your right leg down so you sweep opponent's right leg and pull opponent's wrist towards you with your left arm while pushing opponent's shoulder away from you with your right arm.

This is a complicated description for a very simple technique.

I have a few favorite techniques for a takedown but don't have time to write them now. Maybe I or some enterprising young individual will start a new thread.

As for David whuppin' you on the side of the head when you were not expecting it.....well, all I can say is welcome to ARMA. Good job, David!

[Will Adamson]

That is the basic footsweep that I am familiar with, but the Codex Wallerstein looked a bit different. Plates 18 and 19 show getting the left foot behind the opponent's right. I'm assuming you would use the top of that foot to lift his.

What I'm familiar with as a footsweep uses the heel. Some folks would use the whole back of their leg and get in an awkward position when they fell.

Technically, I may be posting this in the wrong forum, but I figured it was appropriate since this was a grappling maneuver.



Oh hell, I didn't mind since it's in the spirit of making things more realistic. Next time...I'll know what to do!

[JeffGentry]

That is the basic footsweep that I am familiar with, but the Codex Wallerstein looked a bit different. Plates 18 and 19 show getting the left foot behind the opponent's right. I'm assuming you would use the top of that foot to lift his.

What I'm familiar with as a footsweep uses the heel. Some folks would use the whole back of their leg and get in an awkward position when they fell.

Technically, I may be posting this in the wrong forum, but I figured it was appropriate since this was a grappling maneuver.



Oh hell, I didn't mind since it's in the spirit of making things more realistic. Next time...I'll know what to do!

Hey Will

What plate's 18 and 19 are showing is decepitive because of the art work, it is realy a basic hip throw in reverse, step behind your opponent and use the sword as a lever to throw him behind you over your leg no need to lift your leg or any thing else.

Meyer has the same throw's in his book myself and Jaron have done them full speed and they are very simple to do without much resistance and the throwee get's about 4 feet off the ground so these are fairly dangerous to do at full speed without mat's.

Here are two the image's from Meyer, image C it is the two guy's in the center doing the throw from the right side scroll down to image E and it is the two in the upper right hand corner doing as described in Wallerstein.

http://www.schielhau.org/Meyer.p7.html

Jeff

[Will Adamson]

Ah! That makes more sense. Getting someone off their feet is usually easier from the hip than from the foot in my experience. It doesn't take as precise a movement either, thus making it more combat effective.

Thanks, now I need to go practice it!

[david welch]

I just wanted to point out that this was not a "wrap you with my arms and drag you to the ground" tackle. This was a "wait until you don't expect it, and then shoulder you so hard you will find stuff knocked loose later" tackle.

That is a fine technique in it's own right!

[Jay Vail]

Ah! That makes more sense. Getting someone off their feet is usually easier from the hip than from the foot in my experience. It doesn't take as precise a movement either, thus making it more combat effective.

Thanks, now I need to go practice it!

Hmm. It really depends on the situation and the opponent. One is not better than the other in a vaccuum. In fact three of the best all around combat throws don't involve use of the hip or a foot sweep.

[robrobertson]

Ah! That makes more sense. Getting someone off their feet is usually easier from the hip than from the foot in my experience. It doesn't take as precise a movement either, thus making it more combat effective.

Thanks, now I need to go practice it!

Hmm. It really depends on the situation and the opponent. One is not better than the other in a vaccuum. In fact three of the best all around combat throws don't involve use of the hip or a foot sweep.

Dont leave us hanging, Jay! What are they?

Rob

[Jay Vail]

Ah! That makes more sense. Getting someone off their feet is usually easier from the hip than from the foot in my experience. It doesn't take as precise a movement either, thus making it more combat effective.

Thanks, now I need to go practice it!

Hmm. It really depends on the situation and the opponent. One is not better than the other in a vaccuum. In fact three of the best all around combat throws don't involve use of the hip or a foot sweep.

Dont leave us hanging, Jay! What are they?

Rob

Leg hooks inside, outside and crossing (for you judo guys osotogari).

Over-the-leg throws, facing away and facing same direction.

This week I talked with a state department of corrections defensive tactics instructor who defeated a shank attack with an over-the-leg throw/facing away (that is in opposite directions from your opponent), the same technique described by Fiore as a response to a thrust from above.

[robrobertson]

Dont leave us hanging, Jay! What are they?

Rob[/quote]

Leg hooks inside, outside and crossing (for you judo guys osotogari).

Over-the-leg throws, facing away and facing same direction.

This week I talked with a state department of corrections defensive tactics instructor who defeated a shank attack with an over-the-leg throw/facing away (that is in opposite directions from your opponent), the same technique described by Fiore as a response to a thrust from above.[/quote]

So where would I go to read this? I've not studied ANYTHING that's Italian (other than I make a pretty good pasta), so I'm clueless where to follow up this conversation.

Thank you!!!

Rob

[Steve Ames]

David Kite and I had similar questions while working a couple of plates from the codex W. One of the way early plates ends with "allow you to throw your opponent forcefully to the ground" and I couldn't come up with a single way to do that from the ending position.

I don't have the translation nearby but it may be this plate: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/CodexWallerstein/16.jpg

I've done a bit of sweeping in silat but clearly not enough to understand this Your weak is on their neck and your body positioning isn't really that strong. Best theory was that "allow you to throw" also allowed for a huge change in position from the picture to the actual throw position.

[JeffGentry]

David Kite and I had similar questions while working a couple of plates from the codex W. One of the way early plates ends with "allow you to throw your opponent forcefully to the ground" and I couldn't come up with a single way to do that from the ending position.

I don't have the translation nearby but it may be this plate: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/CodexWallerstein/16.jpg

I've done a bit of sweeping in silat but clearly not enough to understand this Your weak is on their neck and your body positioning isn't really that strong. Best theory was that "allow you to throw" also allowed for a huge change in position from the picture to the actual throw position.

I have not tried this particular "technique", the actul text though say's "Next if you strike someone with a downward cut at his sword but he with stand's it: go high behind him with your sword against the weak part of his sword so that your hilt is on his sword, and wind him with your short edge at his neck, as depicted here, so that you can throw him to the ground with force.

I actualy think this is dealing with weak or hard at the bind and continuing action, the title for the passage in Middle high Geman is actualy "Sterck" which is translated as strength from my pigeon german seem's to be correct.

So I do not think the throw is shown it is more a satement that you "can throw him to the ground..." as opposed to "this is how to throw him to the ground" or "now throw him to the ground" it seem's the author is just giving an option not demonstrating the throw.

JMO

Jeff

[Shane Smith]

Kinetic footsweeps are not recommended by me for freeplay. In fact, I do not allow them in sparring. Train them for sure, but the potential for injury in unstructured freeplay cannot be overstated here.

[Jaron Bernstein]

David Kite and I had similar questions while working a couple of plates from the codex W. One of the way early plates ends with "allow you to throw your opponent forcefully to the ground" and I couldn't come up with a single way to do that from the ending position.

I don't have the translation nearby but it may be this plate: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/CodexWallerstein/16.jpg

The fellow on the left just has to use his sword as a lever on the other fellow's neck on any of several angles. Stepping through and using an appropriate leg sweep in conjunction wouldn't hurt either.

[JeffGentry]

Jaron

Pl 16 of CW doesn't say anything about a throw it does say you can break his arm and cut his neck, you could do a throw but in that position you may as well finish him off with the cut to the neck and arm break though.


Jeff