How long was Mss I.33 in use?

[DavidEvans]

It stuck me last night, as I was reading Ms I.33, that we have no idea how long something was in use. We have no idea how long the style contained in Mss I.33 was being taught before the surviving manuscripts were written or long after those sources we have, we have no idea how widespread that sword and Buckler style was.

I suspect that about the time the buckler came into wide spread use someone was working with the combination to find best use, which became codefied as the style that we call Mss I.33 and I suspect that Mss I.33 was the base line that influced the 16th Century Masters who wrote down their teachings on sword and buckler.

Any thoughts...?

[Allen Johnson]

By the time I.33 is written, it is very obvious that it is an extremley effective and established system. This obviously comes from people with a strong martial tradition continuing to tweak and adjust things that had already been done for hundreds of years. There could be a lot of similarities between a norse/ saxon style of sword and round shield that had been tweaked to use a smaller shield and a more tapering arming sword. Evolution is constant and there really isnt a way to say, on this date people started using I.33.

[Brian Hunt]

I believe that the I.33 is a wide reaching form and system of sword and buckler. Go take a look at Jorg Willhelms manual at his sword and buckler section and you will find the I.33 system with slighty different poses. Take a look at some of Talhoffers stuff and you will find strong elements of the I.33. There are other proofs out there, but I will let you find them for yourself - this gives you a start.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jeffrey Hull]

Personally I think that the I.33 stuff would have a direct ancestry to some specific form starting circa 1100 AD. I do not have vast evidence for that or anything, but that is how I reckon it. In any case, I suspect that some sort of sword & buckler fencing had been around in Europe for millenia, perhaps starting more or less simultaneously in various places like British Isles, Crete, Iberia and Greece during the Bronze Age. Perhaps this sort of fencing arose, lasted for some time, then died out. And then arose again later, perhaps more or less simultaneously among the English, Normans and Germans, near that conjectured 1100. But the possibility that it also arose in 9th century Frankland as well as El Cid's Spain are to be considered too. So it seems to appear and disappear, here or there -- the possibilities are fascinating.

[Jon Pellett]

Interesting question there

I don't know much about S&B, unfortunately. I have no idea how old the style is, but I do know some people use I.33 with larger shields and say it works well. Also, you often see pictures of sword and buckler guys that look quite I.33-ish - might not be the same style though of course.

BTW, could anyone tell me - is the verse quoted in I.33 original, or is it something older that is being commented on, like Liechtenaure's verse in Ringeck?

I don't know about I.33 being any kind of standard for later masters though. Most of what I have looked at seems pretty different.

Cheers

[Martin Wallgren]

This is only possible to speculate in.

Some roman officers had roundshields of two feet of diameter. The style could have orgins there or earlier...

But I would lean on to the last theory in this thread.

Just my two ...

[Jonathan Waller]

Body and weapon mechaincs, suggest that if one arms someone with similar weapons and similar shields they will come up with similar solutions to the same problems, hence the transistion in actions, with sword and shield/buckler in the manuals up to the time of highlanders woith their targes. I have seen a manual covering late 19th century police round riot shield and truncheon and the fundamentals are the same.

[VK]

I would say gentlemen, that as long as we find buckler at certain place and date it to a sertain period , we could affirm that Sword buckler system was in use at the time.

[VK]

Body and weapon mechaincs, suggest that if one arms someone with similar weapons and similar shields they will come up with similar solutions to the same problems, hence the transistion in actions, with sword and shield/buckler in the manuals up to the time of highlanders woith their targes. I have seen a manual covering late 19th century police round riot shield and truncheon and the fundamentals are the same.

Agree ! The best proof of this theory for me is the fact that when I opened I . 33 it was astonishing how some of it reminded me the fencing I have studied. And I studied Khevsurian buckler and sword , system existed in the hart of the Caucasus ( Georgian Iberia to be precise) hundreds of miles from Germany. So I tend to agree that the character of weaponry itself dictates the method of use.

VK

[Gene Tausk]

I would say gentlemen, that as long as we find buckler at certain place and date it to a sertain period , we could affirm that Sword buckler system was in use at the time.

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[Vakhtang Kiziria]

I would say gentlemen, that as long as we find buckler at certain place and date it to a sertain period , we could affirm that Sword buckler system was in use at the time.

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