Fighting with two swords?

[Jeffrey Hull]

By the way: I would encourage everyone to train in an ambidextrous manner with their whole array of weaponry. I try to do my best at it, and think that it helps everything that you do martially. Of course, one may favour one side to another in sparring, for example. In the German fight-books they imply this capability if not outright tell you to do so.

[David Kite]

By the way: I would encourage everyone to train in an ambidextrous manner with their whole array of weaponry. I try to do my best at it, and think that it helps everything that you do martially. Of course, one may favour one side to another in sparring, for example. In the German fight-books they imply this capability if not outright tell you to do so.

Of course, ambidexterity is greatly enhanced if you're one of those freaks (like me) who are lefties, but commonly train as a righty. Though a lefty, I'm not quite as proficient fighting left-handed, but I can do it.

I don't remember where the Germans "outright tell you to do so." For the sake of genuine interest, would you mind citing or quoting some examples?

thanks
David Kite
GFS, ARMA in IN

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Unfortunatley very little of what you see on stage & screen impresses at all once you take the time to think about what these two fighters are trying to do. Take the fact that very few films or plays portray just one sword benig used accuratley, much less two. Combine that with the fact that most actors have next to no experience with weapons and are trained in what you see by fight directors where historical accuracy and legitimate martial intent usually takes a deep back seat to directors wishes or what ever they think "looks cool". Hardly impressive in my book.

Tha twas not what I had in mind, though. I have little doubt that swordsmen would have found uses for their skills other than for actually defending themselves in life-and-death encounters, and some of them probably did such demonstrations either for money or to attract new students into their "schooles of defence."

[Jeffrey Hull]

I don't remember where the Germans "outright tell you to do so." For the sake of genuine interest, would you mind citing or quoting some examples?

You are right -- I confess I was wrong, now that I review the sources I thought supported that. I cannot find anything like the equivalent of advising ambidexterity.
In fact, the masters tend to tell you to stay mostly with your best "handedness" (i.e. if you are lefty or righty), as per Doebringer.

However, my conflating was due to a very similar idea, one that the masters emphasise often, telling us to do (or that you can do) technique from both sides (von baiden seitten, et.al.). We find that phrasing all over the literature of KdF -- Von Danzig, Ringeck, even Talhoffer. So thanks for compelling me to double-check, as doing so helped me catch my error.

[Rodolfo Martínez]

Two swords, one on each hand is a Hollywood creation.
I know that a single handed sword, sabre or rapier with a dagger combination known as main gauche was very used, but the dagger was used more for parrying incoming thrusts rather than attack. Indian Katars, Patas or japanese Wakisashis were used in a same fighting style.


Take a look to this parrying dagger:

http://www.silvermane.com/Main%20Gauche.html

http://therionarms.com/armor/gauches.jpg

[Logan Weed]

To master a single weapon in either hand first before moving on to two weapons simultaneously is how stick fighting is taught, you may just be mistaking something your stick instructor (or manual) told you for something your cut and thrust instructor (or manual) said.

To Mr. Martinez: Historical examples of twin sword training have been cited in this thread, though I agree it's so rare as to be almost non-existant.

[Matt_Conner]

To master a single weapon in either hand first before moving on to two weapons simultaneously is how stick fighting is taught, you may just be mistaking something your stick instructor (or manual) told you for something your cat and thrust instructor (or manual) said.

What little I do know about Escrima/Kali stick fighting movement patterns used for practice were showed to me by a friend from work, back when I was stationed in England. Funny thing is, he never showed me any single stick, we just jumped right into the double stick patterns, which I got the hang of right quick. Wouldn't recommend it, though, as I really don't know any of the motions to go through if I was down to one, at least in that form.

For an EMA guy, though, my friend was very open minded to what WMA offered, and wanted to work with me on longsword, we just never got time before I moved here.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

To master a single weapon in either hand first before moving on to two weapons simultaneously is how stick fighting is taught, you may just be mistaking something your stick instructor (or manual) told you for something your cat and thrust instructor (or manual) said.

I'm afraid not. Di Grassi stated it explicitly in the preface to his section on the "case of rapiers," and you can find the link to a translation of it in the first page of this thread. Anyway, the similarity in the learning method only makes a stronger case for this interpretation.

[Logan Weed]

I'm a little confused. My response was directed at Jeffrey Hull, probably should have quoted him.

[Stacy Clifford]

I've done a bit of experimenting with two single cutting swords and found that if you use them right, it can be potentially quite effective. I think most people get hung up on the idea of blades whirling around in opposite directions, but that's exactly why you get tangled up. I've only found a couple of combos where you can effectively move the swords in opposite directions. Only two tactics seem to work well for me, either cut with both in the same direction or cut with one and defend or counterthrust with the other, much like a very large dagger.

Think about it. Hold two swords in vom tag over each shoulder, or both on the right, either one. Now do a right-to-left zornhau with both at the same time. One sword leads and one follows by just a little bit, and one comes in a little higher and one lower. You can do this and throw one at the head and one at the leg. Deflect with the first and hit with the second. You can do this along any of the eight lines, you can follow through into a round strike with one or both or throw one early as a feint, you can stick in a thrust to set up a cut behind it, quite a few viable options here. My left hand isn't anywhere near as proficient as my right, but I can do simple cuts with it strongly and thrust accurately, and that's what's needed. The footwork remains the same. Ambidexterity only increases your options, but it's not a requirement.

If the masters chose not to teach this in their manuals, I suspect it's because by the time you can use one sword well enough to fight with, then you have sufficient knowledge to train yourself to use the other hand or both to use the same weapon. It also requires greater skill to use a second sword than it does to use a buckler or dagger in the off hand, and personally I don't think two swords is better enough that S&B or S&D to be worth the master's time spent training with it. Buckler and dagger seem easier to teach to me and would have been easier to acquire than a second sword, so excluding two-sword combat could easily be seen as a practical matter. It's not that it can't work, it's just that there are easier ways to achieve equally good results.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

If the masters chose not to teach this in their manuals, I suspect it's because by the time you can use one sword well enough to fight with, then you have sufficient knowledge to train yourself to use the other hand or both to use the same weapon. It also requires greater skill to use a second sword than it does to use a buckler or dagger in the off hand, and personally I don't think two swords is better enough that S&B or S&D to be worth the master's time spent training with it. Buckler and dagger seem easier to teach to me and would have been easier to acquire than a second sword, so excluding two-sword combat could easily be seen as a practical matter. It's not that it can't work, it's just that there are easier ways to achieve equally good results.

Sounds reasonable. I don't have as much experience with buckler or dagger as I do with the single sword, but they did come quite naturally to me when I tried experimenting with them by following the drills set out in the manuals. Two swords, though, was a headache.

By the way, may I quote you on your two-sword method for a post in my journal?

[Stacy Clifford]

Sounds reasonable. I don't have as much experience with buckler or dagger as I do with the single sword, but they did come quite naturally to me when I tried experimenting with them by following the drills set out in the manuals. Two swords, though, was a headache.

By the way, may I quote you on your two-sword method for a post in my journal?

Since this is a public forum you're free to quote me, but please keep in mind a few things. My "two-sword method" does not come from any manual. It comes from my own experimentation based on my experience, skill and reasoning built from the concepts that are in the manuals. My ideas on this subject are also fairly recent and not very heavily tested yet. While I feel I'm pretty qualified to have confidence that my ideas are sound, everyone is encouraged to take it with a grain of salt and try it for themselves.

[Justin Lompado]

Think about it. Hold two swords in vom tag over each shoulder, or both on the right, either one. Now do a right-to-left zornhau with both at the same time. One sword leads and one follows by just a little bit, and one comes in a little higher and one lower. You can do this and throw one at the head and one at the leg. Deflect with the first and hit with the second. You can do this along any of the eight lines, you can follow through into a round strike with one or both or throw one early as a feint, you can stick in a thrust to set up a cut behind it, quite a few viable options here. My left hand isn't anywhere near as proficient as my right, but I can do simple cuts with it strongly and thrust accurately, and that's what's needed. The footwork remains the same. Ambidexterity only increases your options, but it's not a requirement.

To be able to wield two swords in two hands effectivley would require the swords to be somewhat small; probably not more than 40". If you do that Zornhau with two of those swords and are fighting say a guy with a greatsword, couldn't he just thrust straight into your chest? He'll be out of your range and still be able to run his blade in you.

I also think fighting with two swords gives some people the impression that they can use both to block blows the same as if they had two hands on a single sword (from what I've seen). There's a reason why you don't want to really "block" any blows with a single hand (you really don't wan to do it at all but...): your wrist isn't strong enough to take it! So, using two single-handed swords to block is almost suicidal.

I just don't see any real discernable advantage to using two swords at once, outside rapiers. I guess that means I don't like using two cutting swords. To me, you don't gain any range, you don't gain any speed or power behind your strikes, you don't gain any control in your strikes, you don't gain any real parrying advantage, and of course you increase the chance of cutting yourself, no matter how good you are. I'd take my Greatsword any day over two messers if I had the choice; and a rapier over another single, one-handed sword.

Stacy, this isn't really directed at you particularly, I just wanted to comment on the section

[LafayetteCCurtis]

I'd take my Greatsword any day over two messers if I had the choice; and a rapier over another single, one-handed sword.

And I'd prefer a good horse's reins in one hand and a stout broadsword in the other! *grins*

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Since this is a public forum you're free to quote me, but please keep in mind a few things. My "two-sword method" does not come from any manual. It comes from my own experimentation based on my experience, skill and reasoning built from the concepts that are in the manuals. My ideas on this subject are also fairly recent and not very heavily tested yet. While I feel I'm pretty qualified to have confidence that my ideas are sound, everyone is encouraged to take it with a grain of salt and try it for themselves.

Which is not a problem at all, since I am seeking opinions anyway. I'm also planning to test some of your methods in half-speed sparring with wasters. I've already tried feinting with a thrust and then following up with an elbow cut against the opponent's wrist or knee, and it does feel natural--but it is described in the manuals so that shouldn't have been a surprise. If you mean a thrust on one hand and a straight-armed, full-power cut coming from the shoulder on the other, though, I haven't tried it yet and it may give different results.