A question on strikes?

[Corey Roberts]

what kinds of strikes are commonly found in the manuals, when they show strikes. Are there references of primarily closed fist strikes, or do they also reference opened handed, palm strikes, and edge strikes, as well as closed fisted edge strikes (hammer strikes?) Also how often do they reference kicks and what kind of kicks are usually found?

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Corey,

Keith Meyer's "Medieval Hand to Hand Combat," if you can still get a copy, will help you out a lot here. There are examples of:

Hammerfist
Closed-fist strikes (usually with a vertical fist)
Palmstrikes
Possibly knife-edge strikes
Stomp-kicks
Snap-kicks (like a front kick)
Knees
Elbow strikes

Jake

[Jay Vail]

Jake is correct, although it must be noted that striking is not emphasized very much.

I would add that in addition to the front snap kick with the ball of the feet, some sources, such as the Codex Wallerstein and Fiore, can be interpreted as a front kick with the bottom of the foot or the heel. This is in fact a safer way than kicking with the ball of the foot because, when barefoot or in soft shoes, you risk your toes with this type of kick.

Fiore and at least one other source of which I am aware shows the side kick to the knee.

In Sidney Anglo's book there is a painting of the German Emperor Maximilian I front kicking his opponent in the knee with the bottom of the foot.

[David_Knight]

Examples of kicks and strikes from Paulus Hector Mair's manual can be found here: http://www.paulushectormair.com/CQC_PHM.htm

[LynGrey]

where is the round kick... i see that more often than the straight kicks, they work in better in combinations.

[Derek Wassom]

Thanks for reminding us of your excellent article, David. Are you still working on a more in-depth version?

Examples of kicks and strikes from Paulus Hector Mair's manual can be found here: http://www.paulushectormair.com/CQC_PHM.htm

[Jake_Norwood]

where is the round kick... i see that more often than the straight kicks, they work in better in combinations.

Lyn,

I'm not sure that there is much of a history of round kicks (I'm assuming we're talking about roundhouse kicks here). I've seen (and used) hooking kicks, stomping kicks, and frontal snap-type kicks in sparring with a variety of weapons, but despite (limited) training in martial arts that integrate roundhouse kicks I have yet to see an opportunity to use one that wouldn't compromise my situation considerably.

I think in a world of heavy upper bodies (both from genetics and, more significantly "kit" whether we're talking "harness" or not) any high kick is much more of a liability than an asset, and one that has the potential to unbalance you as much as a round kick would only complicate the picture further.

That's just my take on it, though--not something from the source material.

Jake

[LynGrey]

where is the round kick... i see that more often than the straight kicks, they work in better in combinations.

Lyn,

I'm not sure that there is much of a history of round kicks (I'm assuming we're talking about roundhouse kicks here). I've seen (and used) hooking kicks, stomping kicks, and frontal snap-type kicks in sparring with a variety of weapons, but despite (limited) training in martial arts that integrate roundhouse kicks I have yet to see an opportunity to use one that wouldn't compromise my situation considerably.

Jake

If i would of met roundhouse kicks i would of said that. A round kick is that kick with your shin you see deleivered oh so much, in almost ever fighting manual i know of. And Kicks to a body are always a liabilty, but to the knees and leg, even so better. Roundhouse kicks in my oppinon are a waste of time.

[Jake_Norwood]

Lyn,

I appreciate your knowledge and your comments, but not especially your tone. Of course this is online communication so I might be reading you wrong. If so, please forgive the error. If not, please take a look at what you're typing first. I'm not a dummy, but we're working from a different set of terminologies here. I don't expect you to know the Ringen names for things, after all.

Also I'm confused--you say that you don't see round kicks, but then you say they're in every manual you can think of. I assume we're talking about the same set of manuals, but maybe not.

In which case the kind of kick you're talking about is, in fact, in ringen. Strikes to the legs, in particular, are very common when looking at kicks in Ringen.

Best,

Jake

[LynGrey]

Lyn,

I appreciate your knowledge and your comments, but not especially your tone. Of course this is online communication so I might be reading you wrong. If so, please forgive the error. If not, please take a look at what you're typing first. I'm not a dummy, but we're working from a different set of terminologies here. I don't expect you to know the Ringen names for things, after all.

Also I'm confused--you say that you don't see round kicks, but then you say they're in every manual you can think of. I assume we're talking about the same set of manuals, but maybe not.

In which case the kind of kick you're talking about is, in fact, in ringen. Strikes to the legs, in particular, are very common when looking at kicks in Ringen.

Best,

Jake

well i apologize for being straight forward.. but when i see a nomenclature miss match.. it upsets me... we need one language really, it fixes everything =) I mean no hostility from anybody here.. unless they disregard the abilty to absorbe and evolve. but roundhouse kicks are kind of an insult to a lot of fellows.. the round house kick is that kick you see Segal or Norris perform in the movies.. really it has limited effientcy. I apologize once agian.

but do you understand what i mean by round kick?

[Mike Cartier]

i don't quite understand how roundhouse kicks are an insult?

They are very effective kicks and used extensivly in MMA.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Lyn,

I think I understand what you're referring to, yes. I didn't initially. While it's true that we all speak English here and it would be great if we had a unified vocabulary for all movements, etc., fact is...we don't. So your patience if we don't immediately follow some of your terminology, not being students of the same "tradition" (I hate that word...oh well).

But, back on topic. Like I said before, I've performed round kicks in sparring--in fact there's a combination in the Codex Wallerstein which uses two of them. I'm not as familiar with the ringen in PHM (the basis of David's article), however, so I can't answer the "why aren't there round kicks" question for that source material.

That being said, kicks of any time seem pretty rare in the source manuals--less rare than punches, but still an overall small part of the art. I think the reason behind it has to do with the utility and goals of the art; those combatives which are designed for civilian use and sportive use tend to use much, much more striking (in it's most extreme forms in Krav Maga, Tae Kwon Do, and Boxing each showing a possible end-form of that).

Battlefield arts tend to focus more on grappling, throwing, and joint manipulation while generally avoiding ground work.

There are, of course, numerous exceptions.

Thoughts?

Jake

[LynGrey]

TKD being the most competative art our there just about.. i know for sure work round kicks alot.. sparring with my friends g/f... she really works my body with em. Krav being complete opposite and train civilians and military/battifield and is in practice as we read and type now are two that utilixe round kicks frequently in combatives.

As far as Roundhouses being used in MMA.. in the pride, k1, UFCs, and matches i've been in and seen i've one seen roundhouses in the amatures i've watched or participated in. They hve there uses.. but not so much in anything practical.

[Jake_Norwood]

I'm glad the TKD/KM comparison got a little bit of a response. They are very, very different arts, but they both use striking for similar reasons--striking is, ultimately, a deterrent. TKD has become essentially boxing or a points game, which separates it from KM considerably. KM uses strikes for two reasons, based on my (admittedly) limited exposure: 1, to set up for a throw or joint attack (this is what strikes are for in Ringen) and 2, to hurt the other guy. Of course simply causing pain is a very civilian/modern soldier consideration, which has it's utility in convincing the other guy to leave you alone (or, in a rarer military context) to submit somehow to your instructions. But it's purpose *isn't* to destroy, debilitate, incompacitate, or otherwise really jack the enemy up. So that's where I was going with that.

KM, by the way, is probably the most practical of all of the current "martial arts" for street use. Certainly moreso than the US Army's BJJ-based Level-one combatives.

Jake

[LynGrey]

I'm glad the TKD/KM comparison got a little bit of a response. They are very, very different arts, but they both use striking for similar reasons--striking is, ultimately, a deterrent. TKD has become essentially boxing or a points game, which separates it from KM considerably. KM uses strikes for two reasons, based on my (admittedly) limited exposure: 1, to set up for a throw or joint attack (this is what strikes are for in Ringen) and 2, to hurt the other guy. Of course simply causing pain is a very civilian/modern soldier consideration, which has it's utility in convincing the other guy to leave you alone (or, in a rarer military context) to submit somehow to your instructions. But it's purpose *isn't* to destroy, debilitate, incompacitate, or otherwise really jack the enemy up. So that's where I was going with that.

KM, by the way, is probably the most practical of all of the current "martial arts" for street use. Certainly moreso than the US Army's BJJ-based Level-one combatives.

Jake

Well KM idea of stirkes it to KO that first shot, really no set-up so much as just punch for your life... thats my expierence in training with it.

You metioned that KM is the more practical one compared to the Army's BJJ... well KM is starting to take the Rug out from BJJ's legs. I was up in Fayetteville(Ft Bragg) and some of my family and freinds of family have said that KM is what they are training a few groups of soliders (the more refined guys) To give it a test run in the service =)