Weight Workouts and blade control.

[Jonathan Harton]

As a relatively new practitioner of WMA and the longsword, one thing I am having issues with is blade control because my arm and sholder strength is not probobly what it should be. This causes me to have to fight the sword at times to place certain strikes properly. Zwerchhau, for example, tends to give me problems. I know that a great deal of control just comes with time and experience, but are there any weight lifting or other workouts anyone can recommend to help meyself, and likely others, along?

Thanks for any help,
Jonathan.

[Randall Pleasant]

Jonathan

Actually the best weight to lift for cutting is a waster.

[Rod-Thornton]

Jonathan

Actually the best weight to lift for cutting is a waster.

Randall's right on target. An older thread here states the same thing as well regarding how to grow your sword arm strength... By way of similar issue perhaps the best way to develop wind and stamina is not by running, etc...but by performing longer and more intense floryshes and pell-work.

To answer your question more pointedly, I think most ARMA-teers would advise you to focus on doing the cutting exercises (8-cut exercise then later the 16 cut one) as frequently and as regularly as you can. These were developed for exactly this reason as far as I can tell.

You will find that as time goes by you will need to repeat the exercise into doing it non-stop multiple times in row to get the same fatigue level....ya know why? cuz your "sword-arm" is growing stronger. Actually your whole body is. Just be sure to use correct form first and limit energy just enough to control the cut but still keep intent. Simple. Subtle. Not overly-glamorous. Very effective. (just like our craft, eh?)

[JeremyDillon]

These are helpful tips, although I've looked and looked throughout this site and have yet to find a description of the 8 or 16 cut exercises. I can only assume that the 8 cut drill involves repeatedly cutting along the eight primary cut angles (vertically high to low and low to high, diagonally from high right to low left, high left to low right, low right to high left, and low left to high right, and horizontally right to left and left to right), but the 16 cut drill is still unclear.

*EDIT* Also, Jonathon, I had a similar problem and pelling as well as practice on a soft target of some kind has really helped me with controlling where my blows are landing. Especially if you get into rapier fighting, it's very important to do quite a bit of target practice or your thrusts are going to be all over the place.

[Jake_Norwood]

Jeremy,

The 8 and 16 cut excercieses can be found on the ARMARIA, the ARMA member's page, or learned during an ARMA NTP 1.0.

The basic idea, though, of cutting lots of times through the segno, is correct. You'll also find several similar exercises scattered throughout the training videos here on the public site.

Jake

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

As a personal trainer, I would say that the first suggestion is good, but you can supplement your sword-work with appropriate resistance work outs (read: Weight training). Truly, the way to be come better with the sword is to continue to use it, but if you fail in form because of lack of strength you are hurting your practice, your training and possibly yourself. So, My suggestion is to work on shoulder raises: Lateral and front. You will find you work hard for a time, but strength will come. Keep pell work and forms the central part of you training routine, but the weight training will strengthen your arms and also make you hit harder. I also think that doing pull-ups with palms forward would help.

-Jeremiah

[Ray Brunk]

Jonathan,
Repetitious waster training is definitely the primary course for strengthening your "sword arm". With this said, I would strongly suggest resistance training as a supplemental workout. To refrain from weight training would be to ignore an additional tool to more comprehensively better your ability. ARMA teaches us to pull from all sources to help us to achieve our goals. I've been a competitive powerlifter since the 80s and strength was never my problem from the first time I picked up a sword. Had some stamina issues in the beginning but fixed that with waster training. Never been pushed around in sparring but beaten with speed and technique which has improved with time.

Direct answer to question.......weights work, period.
Anyone who tells you differently is lazy.
Hope this helps

[Brian Hunt]

Having sparred and wrestled with Ray, I can testify to the fact that he belongs on the brute squad.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jonathan Harton]

Thanks for all the input fellows.

Ray,

What would you suggest in the way of a good workout?

[Ray Brunk]

Having sparred and wrestled with Ray, I can testify to the fact that he belongs on the brute squad.

Brian Hunt
GFS

Hey Brian
Hope things are well.
I just try to keep up with the bigs boys such as yourself , Tim & Jake
Hope to see you guys again soon.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Thanks for all the input fellows.

Ray,

What would you suggest in the way of a good workout?

I know you asked Ray, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents, free for nothing and worth every penny.

There are tougher questions you could ask on the internet...I can't think of any right now, but I am sure they exist.
Since you are trying to gain strength and endurance from your workouts, you will want all of your lifts to fall in the range of 8-12 reps. This will help fatigue the muscles to a degree that they will strengthen and gain more in the way of "lean" muscle that keeping it at lower reps. Do not do 20+ reps. This is not as good for your muscles and could possibly lead to damage of some sort. I would say that your best friends for gaining here would be the dumbells (free weights) and the cable machines (the arch, which you stand in the middle with one cable going to each hand). Anyway, you didn't ask for my advice, so I will be quiet now. Just my thoughts.

-Jeremiah

[Logan Weed]

I would suggest free weights over machines as these are more effective at strengthening your "control" muscles, which are very important for athletic performance.

While I agree that weight lifting will make you a better martial artist, I don't think it's the source of your problem.

While it may seem easy, something as simple as walking is an incredibly complex action requiring precisely timed and coordinated action of dozens of muscles. You can accomplish it easily because you've been practicing your form and reactions to feedback for your entire life, building and refining a collection of unconcious "programming". Sword technique is no different. You find the sword difficult to stop once you put it into motion because your nervious system has not refined it's programming for the action. How is programming refined? Repetition of the action.

So while it may appear you're getting stronger with waster practice, my guess would be that such a light object could only produce minimal gains in muscular power. Rather, your nervious system is improving its ability to utilize the muscles it already has.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

I agree with the free weights, they do help develope the "supporting" muscles, helping one to be more steady. The cable type lifts are also very effective at gaining in strength in the mass part of the muscle and in the supporters. The reason that cables are good for gaining is the fact that the resistance on the muscle is constant as opposed to when your arms are in different positions with free weights. Free weights (I am thinking especially in shoulder exercises) work in the normal parabola of gravitational pull on the weight. So my shoulders relax on the bottom of the lift. On the cable, the weight is constantly being pulled down, which is constantly trying to pull the cable in. I really suggest that you take your regular shoulder training and put it onto the cable machine (the arch, as I like to call it), you will get a great workout in less time. Cables and free weights, these two will help with strength all around.

-Jeremiah

[Ray Brunk]

Good advice from all. Free weights are generally the way to go.
I assume the "arch" is local slang for double cable lateral raises?
I have sent PM with a good start up program.
Your Ringen am Schwert will thank you

Best to all

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Yes, the Arch is slang, the proper name escaped me when I sat at the computer. I absolutely love using it for shoulder work. I find it to give a fast fatiguing workout. I did 20 minutes hitting the shoulders, 3 sets 3 exercises, and it was the best shoulder workout I have ever had for my shoulders.
Ray, could I ask you to send me a copy of your start up routine? I would be interested in seeing it.

-Jeremiah