Dagger throwing

[JeremyDillon]

I believe we've all seen the (I think practically dubious) Hollywood fight scenes in which a combatant throws a dagger. I'm skeptical of such a self-disarm, but I'm wondering if there's any precedent in the manuals. It seems to me far more practical to utilize the dagger as a companion weapon or to hold on to it for combat close in. I'm familiar with a particular plate in Talhoffer (I believe) where a combatant in an armored bout with spear and longsword throws his spear, but that's as close as I've found.

[Jay Vail]

I believe we've all seen the (I think practically dubious) Hollywood fight scenes in which a combatant throws a dagger. I'm skeptical of such a self-disarm, but I'm wondering if there's any precedent in the manuals. It seems to me far more practical to utilize the dagger as a companion weapon or to hold on to it for combat close in. I'm familiar with a particular plate in Talhoffer (I believe) where a combatant in an armored bout with spear and longsword throws his spear, but that's as close as I've found.

Never seen any thrown daggers in any of the manuals I've looked at. Throwing knives is Hollywood and circus stuff anyway.

[louie Pastore]

I believe we've all seen the (I think practically dubious) Hollywood fight scenes in which a combatant throws a dagger. I'm skeptical of such a self-disarm, but I'm wondering if there's any precedent in the manuals. It seems to me far more practical to utilize the dagger as a companion weapon or to hold on to it for combat close in. I'm familiar with a particular plate in Talhoffer (I believe) where a combatant in an armored bout with spear and longsword throws his spear, but that's as close as I've found.

Hi Jeremy
I've come across an old English dance-(drill?/kata) that apparently goes back to medieval times in which two opponents face each other with wooden bucklers/targes and daggers and in part of the 'dance throw the daggers into each other's shield. This may have been done for effect but would have made an excellent training drill!
A modern Morris group have tried to re-create it but feel it's safer to use spear like darts to jab at their opponents shield.

In Scotland the Highland Dirk Dance (in which the 'dancer' flourishes the weapon using cuts & guards) there's a section in which the weapon is thrown - in this case it's into the floor but again if this were part of a drill it could have been aimed at an opponent.

Louie

[Will Adamson]

Throwing knives have to be weighted in a certain way. From what I've seen they are usually pretty small.

You can throw just about any sharp object and have a certain chance that it will stick, but you have to get the rotation just right. For this reason it usually remains in the realm of Hollywood and sideshow acts. My brother-in-law is pretty adept at it since he is a professional sideshow performer. He measures everthing out very precisely and is very particular in the modifications he makes to his equipment. (Especially to the "swords" that he swallows!)

As far as in a real fight, the only knife-like weapons that I've seen that stand a reasonable chance of sticking in the target without precise measuring are some asian ninja sort of stuff. I think they (along with stars and darts) are used more as distractions in order to escape or gain the initiative in order to get in close for a stab or cut.

If Jay says it's bogus, I'd have to trust his wealth of experience.

[Allen Johnson]

What about everyones favorite Talhoffer plate? :

http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.s ... p_lang=eng

and here is one in preperation:
http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.s ... p_lang=eng

[Martin_Wilkinson]

If i remember correctly, Alfred Hutton says in Sword and the Centuries that Poignards were sometimes balanced to be thrown.

That's the only place i've heard/seen anything similar, outside Hollywood.

[Will Adamson]

I don't see how you can throw both the hat and the dagger at the same time with any accuracey.

Throwing in close is a bit different from throwing at a distance. In close is a bit like slinging a screwdriver into the ground since you don't allow for a rotation.

It also occured to me a few minutes ago that I learned about throwing the sword from Jake. I seem to remember something about this being one of tactics from the archer guard in paticular.

[Rod-Thornton]

What about everyones favorite Talhoffer plate? :

http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.s ... p_lang=eng

and here is one in preperation:
http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.s ... p_lang=eng

Hey Allen:

Nice plate. I reckon that is the equivalent of today's "H-Mary" pass. I recall fighting sword on staff and losing my sword and thinking "Cranky...I'm scr#@#d now!" That guy surely figured the same....and threw the knife.

(I cannot help to think though, that plate is much the same as a frozen T.V. dinner box showing what they call the serving "suggestion." )

[Jake_Norwood]

I don't see how you can throw both the hat and the dagger at the same time with any accuracey.

I would wager he through the hat, then the dagger.

It also occured to me a few minutes ago that I learned about throwing the sword from Jake. I seem to remember something about this being one of tactics from the archer guard in paticular.

It's a theory that some of us have bounced around a few times. I'm not sure how well attested it is, though, to be honest.

Jake[/quote]

[Allen Johnson]

the hat is just a distraction- it really dosent need accuracy. If you are a right hander, you could easily make a left handed toss of the hat at the same time you are drawing your dagger with your more dexterious right hand.

[JeremyDillon]

What about everyones favorite Talhoffer plate? :

http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.s ... p_lang=eng

and here is one in preperation:
http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.s ... p_lang=eng

Very interesting, I had completely forgotten about this plate. One thing of note is the range. Unlike in movies such as LOTR the combatant on the left is throwing his dagger at fairly close range. I would think that this would make iit much easier to hit the target point first.

[Allen Johnson]

I dont think we can take the range of the combatants at face value. If the distance was literal then the entire distance of the ring would only be 2 or 3 steps wide. Thats not to say it couldnt be done that close, its just that I dont feel the displayed perceptance of distance is supposed to be literal.

[Axel Pettersson]

Just a thought.

Most throwing daggers I have seen have had very wide blades, to score the best cuts when they hit target. Rondel daggers, which seem to be the type of dagger used in most manuals (that I have seen atleast, perhaps there is another type in Petter?) usually have very narrow blades, as it is used mostly to stab. Hence the point is almost the only part of the dagger you could hope to do some serious damage with, and it must be mighty hard to make a rondel dagger fly straight.

[Will Adamson]

I would wager he through the hat, then the dagger.

Agreed, but to make the tactic effective the dagger (or whatever else was to be thrown) would have to follow so quickly that it would almost need to be a closely coordinated movement.

Perhaps there needs to be some rondel throwing to test this.

[Jay Vail]

I believe we've all seen the (I think practically dubious) Hollywood fight scenes in which a combatant throws a dagger. I'm skeptical of such a self-disarm, but I'm wondering if there's any precedent in the manuals. It seems to me far more practical to utilize the dagger as a companion weapon or to hold on to it for combat close in. I'm familiar with a particular plate in Talhoffer (I believe) where a combatant in an armored bout with spear and longsword throws his spear, but that's as close as I've found.

Okay, guys. Let’s put this silly thread to bed. There are no old sources showing throwing daggers. I have not seen any and nobody here has reported any either. There’s a reason for that. Throwing your dagger is a stupid thing to do in combat. In 87 knife homicides reported in the London coroner's rolls for 1300-1375 not one involved a thrown knife. Not one.

Throwing knives is a really difficult skill. It is really hard to do with any degree of certainty that you will hit the guy with the point rather than the pommel. To hit the guy with the point, you have to be at an exact distance, because the knife turns over in a predictable way. If you are only a couple of inches out of distance, you will screw up the throw. Circus performers who specialize in throwing knives always do so from a prescribed distance which is determined by the particular characteristics of their individual knife. Generally that is one turn, sometimes two. Have you ever wondered why shuriken are star shaped? This is why.

Moreover, striking with the point requires not only being at the right distance, but fine motor skills which as we all know are not there when you want them in combat.

So stop with the throwing daggers discussion. This is for beginners who have read too many fantasy novels or seen too many movies, not for serious martial artists.

Gene, lock this discussion now.