New editorial - Western Civ & Spartans

[RayMcCullough]

Excelent article!

Nice Rebuttal Mr. Heslop.

[ColinWheeler]

Sigh...As of this moment, I have spent 52 minutes reading this thread from hopeful start, through furious middle, to dreary (and, sadly, not yet final) conclusion. I think, now, that I will pick up my waster and go outside and drill, maybe work my pell...probably for close to 52 minutes. At the end of this, I will look back and think about which 52 minute period improved my connection to my European martial heritage more. I am pretty certain that the second period will prove to have been more edifying, more fun, and certainly more productive in my quest to dicover the martial skills of my ancestors.

JC's piece was an editorial, no more, no less. I liked what I interpreted as its intent; I didn't agree with every statement in it, but who cares? It's an opinion piece, not a dissertation, not a manifesto.

Opinions are not always like a certain bodily orifice; no group I have yet met spends quite such a lot of time and energy flatulating at each other. Can we please get back to talking about new and cool ways to kill each other with sharp pointy objects or our bare hands, and leave the killing each other with ennui-inducing re-iterations of past posts behind?

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Voooop

[Martin Wallgren]

What others thought of them, did not stop my ancestors, when they fought off the Turks at Nicea, or when they took Jerusalem. And because of their actions, I don't have to live in a society dominated by a hateful theocracy.

In what country do you live, just out of curiosity?

Kind regards!

[david welch]

If we are to truly understand the martial pricipals of our European ancestors, the weapons, and the method in which they were wielded so effectively, then we must understand the cultural climate, and the environment that genertated them. It's part of the process. If we are truly embrace this (historical WMA) then we ought to know about the world in which it came into being, don't you think?

You have no idea how much I agree with you on this.

This is one of the points of studying WMA I hate.

If I was to decide to study eastern arts, and wanted to learn about, say the Samurai, Oh, then I would be expected to learn about Bushido, and eastern philosophy, and why they were noble, and understand and be able to participate in their religious acts like being able to participate in a tea ceremony.

Want to learn WMA? Well then you have to accept that they had no social or religious underpinnings, they never acted on a noble thought, and if you even pretend they were motivated even once by anything other than avarice and greed you are labeled a racist.

"I feel your pain."

Is there a word for the polar opposite of a xenophobe? Someone that is terrified that some day he might find something about his own history or culture he is not capable of loathing?

There should be.

David

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

What others thought of them, did not stop my ancestors, when they fought off the Turks at Nicea, or when they took Jerusalem. And because of their actions, I don't have to live in a society dominated by a hateful theocracy.

In what country do you live, just out of curiosity?

Kind regards!

USA. Don't be fooled by my spelling. I'm a rabid Anglophile (PC-speak translation: evil ethnocentrist), and thus often spell things in the correct (British) fashion, (more evil ethnocentricity. I'm basicly an evil bigot all round).

In case you were also wondering, I'm of English (hence the English last name), French, Italian, Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian extraction. And when I say my ancestors, I mean it quite literally. My ancestor Baldwin of Boulogne captured Edessa, and went on to become the second King of Jerusalem. How did my French ancestors end up in America? Well, they were landed French Catholic lords...and then they became Huguenots. The Catholics nearly killed us off, so they sought refuge in Elizabeth I's court, and sailed for the Dutch colonies later.


And, yes...I believe I see what's coming next. "But you live in the USA, you're of European origin, you exploited the natives! You forced them to convert to Christianity!"

Well...nobody ever said we were perfect.

-B

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

If we are to truly understand the martial pricipals of our European ancestors, the weapons, and the method in which they were wielded so effectively, then we must understand the cultural climate, and the environment that genertated them. It's part of the process. If we are truly embrace this (historical WMA) then we ought to know about the world in which it came into being, don't you think?

You have no idea how much I agree with you on this.

This is one of the points of studying WMA I hate.

If I was to decide to study eastern arts, and wanted to learn about, say the Samurai, Oh, then I would be expected to learn about Bushido, and eastern philosophy, and why they were noble, and understand and be able to participate in their religious acts like being able to participate in a tea ceremony.

Want to learn WMA? Well then you have to accept that they had no social or religious underpinnings, they never acted on a noble thought, and if you even pretend they were motivated even once by anything other than avarice and greed you are labeled a racist.

"I feel your pain."

Is there a word for the polar opposite of a xenophobe? Someone that is terrified that some day he might find something about his own history or culture he is not capable of loathing?

There should be.

David

Exactly! Nothing vexes me so much as this. I think a tropical, flesh-eating skin disease would be more tolerable. Gah! It makes one wish this were still the age of dueling. People would be a little more circumspect if they had to defend their words with their lives.

But be careful, my friend...for I tread the path of the Dark Side, for I am an evil Western Imperialist. Anger and aggression are my credo. If you engage in discourse with me too long, you shall become corrupted. And once you start down the Dark Path, for ever will it dominate your destiny!

Ha ha!

-B.

[J. F. McBrayer]

Want to learn WMA? Well then you have to accept that they had no social or religious underpinnings, they never acted on a noble thought, and if you even pretend they were motivated even once by anything other than avarice and greed you are labeled a racist.

No one is saying this. This idea is coming purely from your emotional reaction to what people are saying.

I strongly agree that we should be studying the social and religious underpinnings of our arts. That said, we should be studying what those actually were for the periods and places we are interested in, not some vague and only quasi-historical notion of some Western Culture that everyone from the Spartans to Henry Kissinger shares in its entirety without any change over time.

I'm currently reading Baldassare Castiglione's Book of the Courtier as a guide to Renaissance Italian thought. I think the concepts of sprezzatura (studied nonchalance) and l'uomo universale are probably quite important to our study of martial arts of that period. I know less about the thought that may underpin medieval European martial arts, though I suspect the Seven Holy Virtues may be a starting point. I suspect that as we study these further, we will find them greatly in contradiction to our contemporary ideas about martial arts (aggression, doing anything to win, etc.), rather than in support.

Is our understanding of any of these furthered by vague pronouncements about the glory of the West, or Clash of Civilizations rhetoric, or citations of neoconservative court historians? I don't think so. The problem is not that there is too much attention to the cultural and historical context of our arts, but that there is too little!

[david welch]

No one is saying this. This idea is coming purely from your emotional reaction to what people are saying.

Funny, I thought it was coming from when I was called a racist.

Silly me.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Want to learn WMA? Well then you have to accept that they had no social or religious underpinnings, they never acted on a noble thought, and if you even pretend they were motivated even once by anything other than avarice and greed you are labeled a racist.

No one is saying this. This idea is coming purely from your emotional reaction to what people are saying.

I strongly agree that we should be studying the social and religious underpinnings of our arts. That said, we should be studying what those actually were for the periods and places we are interested in, not some vague and only quasi-historical notion of some Western Culture that everyone from the Spartans to Henry Kissinger shares in its entirety without any change over time.

I'm currently reading Baldassare Castiglione's Book of the Courtier as a guide to Renaissance Italian thought. I think the concepts of sprezzatura (studied nonchalance) and l'uomo universale are probably quite important to our study of martial arts of that period. I know less about the thought that may underpin medieval European martial arts, though I suspect the Seven Holy Virtues may be a starting point. I suspect that as we study these further, we will find them greatly in contradiction to our contemporary ideas about martial arts (aggression, doing anything to win, etc.), rather than in support.

Is our understanding of any of these furthered by vague pronouncements about the glory of the West, or Clash of Civilizations rhetoric, or citations of neoconservative court historians? I don't think so. The problem is not that there is too much attention to the cultural and historical context of our arts, but that there is too little!

And where, exactly, did Baldassare Castiglione find his inspiration, hmm?
I'll tell you where: from the pricipals of Chivalry. And from whence did Chivalry come? From the Germanic warrior code. And what influenced the Germanic warrior code? The Romans, their most frequent adversary. When the Germanics overran the western Roman Empire, they adopted much of the ancient glory of Rome. Charlemagne is the perfect example. And who influenced the Romans? The GREEKS!

The might and magnificence of the West was forged in protracted, bloody conflicts with other civilisations: the Persians, the Mongols, the Moors, the Turks, and others. It is because of this "clash of civilisations," as you call it, that the west became the dominant, most influentail, and most prosperous force on the planet. It is because we tested our mettle against all comers that we fought so well, not in spite of it. It is because of this that we progressed as far as we have. No, it did not occur in giant leaps, and yes, there were times when it was interrupted, set back, and thwarted for a time. But we are the "dragon" that the Japanese Emperor's advisor (I can't remember his name) feared that they might "awaken" when Japan decided to attack America in WWII.

Mr. Clement's editorial IS founded upon solid history. It is relevant to historical WMA.

-B.

[J. F. McBrayer]

Mr. Clement's editorial IS founded upon solid history. It is relevant to historical WMA.

It is not entirely free of historical content. However, it is so vague as to be misleading. Maybe that's good enough for an editorial; I suppose you can look at it that way.

However, it's also clear that it the subtext of the article has to do with contemporary politics, not with Renaissance, medieval, or ancient history, just as the book it's loosely based on, Carnage and Culture does. That's why the criticism of the article has been so intense --- people don't want to see HEMA tied to a narrow segment of exclusively American politics by one of its most prominent spokesmen.

[J. F. McBrayer]

No one is saying this. This idea is coming purely from your emotional reaction to what people are saying.

Funny, I thought it was coming from when I was called a racist.

I will say that the people calling you a racist on the Schola forum are out of line. Not knowing you personally, I won't even go so far as to say you are a xenophobe.

[Jon Pellett]

Colin Wheeler wrote:
Can we please get back to talking about new and cool ways to kill each other with sharp pointy objects or our bare hands, and leave the killing each other with ennui-inducing re-iterations of past posts behind?

Hear hear!

Or, if we are going to argue, let's actually read what people are saying, rather than what we imagine they mean according to our own prejudices.

J. F. McBrayer wrote:
I'm currently reading Baldassare Castiglione's Book of the Courtier as a guide to Renaissance Italian thought. I think the concepts of sprezzatura (studied nonchalance) and l'uomo universale are probably quite important to our study of martial arts of that period.

Hush, you're drifting on topic. I have to read that book properly. From skimming it I got the impression that it should have been subtitled How to be the Coolest Kid Around.

Do you think sprezzatura is a concept that can be applied directly to martial arts practice? To make it look effortless you have to be pretty damn good, and if you are doing something like Marozzo then the concept certainly applies, but what about say Fiore?

Cheers

[Gene Tausk]

Colin Wheeler wrote:
Can we please get back to talking about new and cool ways to kill each other with sharp pointy objects or our bare hands, and leave the killing each other with ennui-inducing re-iterations of past posts behind?

Hear hear!

Or, if we are going to argue, let's actually read what people are saying, rather than what we imagine they mean according to our own prejudices.

J. F. McBrayer wrote:
I'm currently reading Baldassare Castiglione's Book of the Courtier as a guide to Renaissance Italian thought. I think the concepts of sprezzatura (studied nonchalance) and l'uomo universale are probably quite important to our study of martial arts of that period.

Hush, you're drifting on topic. I have to read that book properly. From skimming it I got the impression that it should have been subtitled How to be the Coolest Kid Around.

Do you think sprezzatura is a concept that can be applied directly to martial arts practice? To make it look effortless you have to be pretty damn good, and if you are doing something like Marozzo then the concept certainly applies, but what about say Fiore?

Cheers

Everyone:

Get this conversation back in line to RMA or stop it here.

[J. F. McBrayer]

Do you think sprezzatura is a concept that can be applied directly to martial arts practice? To make it look effortless you have to be pretty damn good, and if you are doing something like Marozzo then the concept certainly applies, but what about say Fiore?

As you say, it definitely applies (as context) to Bolognese fencing; I don't think I'd try to apply it to the Fiore/Vadi tradition.

As to applying it directly to martial arts practice? It may be something we can apply more to the question of why we practice (self-improvement, development of natural grace) rather than directly to what we practice. On the other hand, I have a vague idea that applied to HES, sprezzatura may provide us with a concept comparable to ki ken tai ichi in kendo. We could use it today to ensure that correct form counts for more than native speed in freeplay (i.e., it doesn't count unless you made it look good)?

I dunno. Ask me again when I get a bit further through the book.