Rapier vs. Longsword sparring.

[Aaron Kavli]

I had a great time at the recent NTP 1.0 & Rapier in Murray, KY. Thanks to John for teaching--I truly feel I came away with a greater understanding that made some things "click" and I felt it in my sparring on Sunday.

One of the things I did was some mixed weapon sparring, walking around with my rapier and dagger and challenging longswords and even did some messer vs. rapier/dagger. Very interesting and very fun.

I used the assumption that a rapier wouldn't last long if hit by a longsword, so I mostly tried to void attacks. It seems the force of a good longsword swing would push through any sort of rapier parry (even if it didn't break), so in that sense it doesn't seem like a good idea. Then I realized that I don't really know how a rapier blade would react to being struck, just another assumption of mine. I know they were far stiffer than usually portrayed, but were they brittle?

So for such rapier sparring, would it be fair to consider your rapier broken if it were hit with force by a longsword, or would one hold up to such punishment better than that?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Aaron,

I think the goal for rapier wielder is to either void the longsword, or if you must parry, do it with the strong.

[Martin_Wilkinson]

This might be of interest.

http://www.salvatorfabris.com/RapierPar ... word.shtml

[Shane Smith]

Hi Aaron,

I think the goal for rapier wielder is to either void the longsword, or if you must parry, do it with the strong.

I agree with Jaron. I have had good success against rapier with longsword by cutting the hands and arms. I've also had good success against longsword with rapier by void and counter thrust as well as stealing the march outright.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

This might be of interest.

http://www.salvatorfabris.com/RapierPar ... word.shtml

I wouldn't call that a parry at all. It's just a stop--it doesn't really deflect the longsword blade much or bring it really out of line.

[Martin_Wilkinson]

This might be of interest.

http://www.salvatorfabris.com/RapierPar ... word.shtml

I wouldn't call that a parry at all. It's just a stop--it doesn't really deflect the longsword blade much or bring it really out of line.

My understanding of a parry is that it just stops the blade, doesn't deflect it, i could be (and probably am) mistaken in this.

[Brian Hunt]

This is why I try to avoid the word parry, too much baggage associated with it. A stop is a block that either moves forward to stifle a cut via forte to forte, or takes the strike on the forte through a static position; both actions leaves the opponent's weapon spent; takes away it's momentum and stops it. IMHO, a parry is more of a deflection. As such, I prefer to use the word displacement rather than parry in order to better state my action. I find that displacments or redirections with a rapier, or even with a small sword work just fine against a long sword. I try to avoid actions that would be considered stops or hard blocks. when fencing a longsword with a rapier or a small sword.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeffGentry]

I had a great time at the recent NTP 1.0 & Rapier in Murray, KY. Thanks to John for teaching--I truly feel I came away with a greater understanding that made some things "click" and I felt it in my sparring on Sunday.

One of the things I did was some mixed weapon sparring, walking around with my rapier and dagger and challenging longswords and even did some messer vs. rapier/dagger. Very interesting and very fun.

I used the assumption that a rapier wouldn't last long if hit by a longsword, so I mostly tried to void attacks. It seems the force of a good longsword swing would push through any sort of rapier parry (even if it didn't break), so in that sense it doesn't seem like a good idea. Then I realized that I don't really know how a rapier blade would react to being struck, just another assumption of mine. I know they were far stiffer than usually portrayed, but were they brittle?

So for such rapier sparring, would it be fair to consider your rapier broken if it were hit with force by a longsword, or would one hold up to such punishment better than that?

Hey Aaron

I do not fight using a rapier much if ever, I have fought against them using a Long sword, one thing i notice is alot of practioner's forget they have 3 way's of attacking with there LS,cut, slice and thrust and the rapier has one the thrust, i generaly do not cut all that much when i fight a rapier with a longsword,when i do cut it is usualy a smaller wrist cut at my opponent's hand's.

I think you are better off to void and thrust if someone use's a big full arm cut against a rapier.


Jeff

[Aaron Kavli]

Thanks for all the replies. The article linked above was just what I was looking for.

At the NTP in Murray, John had talked about Silver's view of the rapier and proceeded to show how effective the rapier was against a short sword... and then showed how effective the short sword could be against the rapier. I used that to good effect using the messer against a rapier & dagger combo (without grappling). It was pretty cool.

One of the important things that stuck from the rapier class was effectively batting away the rapier's thrust and the chain of handwork John showed (bat, bat, thrust etc.) I had greatly ignored this before, as I seldom could make it work effectively. I came to realize the main reason was that I was making a weak attempt with poor mechanics that only deflected the thrust enough to hit me elsewhere. With this realization I put the swat to good use with the messer in Vom Dach, resulting in several satisfying swat-chop counters.

[Derrick Berrier]

I had the opportunity for some Longsword against Rapier work in Murray as well. Tried a few things that just got me poked. To be fair though I am still working on being effective against another Longsword. Anyway out of about 6 or 7 plays against the rapier I only took the advantage once. I took advantage of the range, siezed the rapier with one hand and was able to deliver a good single handed strike with the longsword effectively ending the fight. Still I walked away with about five little quarter size bruises on my chest for my efforts.

Derrick Berrier
Louisville, Kentucky

[Aaron Kavli]

I took advantage of the range, siezed the rapier with one hand and was able to deliver a good single handed strike with the longsword effectively ending the fight. Still I walked away with about five little quarter size bruises on my chest for my efforts.

Derrick Berrier
Louisville, Kentucky

I had fun fighting with you. My mind still forgets about sword grabbing sometimes and I fail to consider it. When you grabbed my rapier, instead of dropping it and trying to rush in with my dagger or something cool like that, I just dumbly stared at your hand thinking "He grabbed my sword. He can't grab me... oof!"

So I now consider myself properly reminded. At least until next time I forget.

[Jon Pellett]

I wouldn't call that a parry at all. It's just a stop--it doesn't really deflect the longsword blade much or bring it really out of line.

From the article: "Christian’s longsword therefore impacted the true edge of my blade at a very acute angle (approximately 20 degrees), losing some of its momentum and subsequently stopping at my hilt..." I guess you could call that a stop, though a fairly soft one. When you cut, the blade starts out of line, and you bring it back into or through the line, but intersecting your opponent's body (right?) So when you stop or otherwise parry a cut, you prevent it from coming into line. Whereas when you parry a thrust, you have to take it out of line before it arrives. At least that is how I understand the term, I could be wrong.

I'm curious, though; I've never tried rapier. What kind of parry do you use against a longsword if not this kind? I thought that rapiers didn't have a lot of force in the swing, and weren't as good with point off line (especially compared with a longsword). So do beating parries or countercuts work? Or am I misunderstanding?

Cheers

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Being a pedant, I wouldn't even try to "parry" a longsowrd cut at all. I'd just counterattack.

[Jon Pellett]

Well strictly speaking the parry in the article was a counterattack, since Tom was lunging and aiming his point at Christian's face. Counter-pedantry!

I guess we don't actually disagree at all.

Cheers

[Randall Pleasant]

Well strictly speaking the parry in the article was a counterattack, since Tom was lunging and aiming his point at Christian's face. Counter-pedantry!

I guess we don't actually disagree at all.

Cheers

I would feel better about Leoni's article if there were pictures or video. At the WMAW 2006 Event I noticed that there is a very big difference in how Tobler and many other people at the event cut as compared to how ARMA scholars cut. If Tobler made the cut from Vom Tag in which the sword was held in front of the right should, rather than over the right shoulder, then the cut would natually be somewhat weak with the hilt lower than the point. In such a case I can easily see the catching the blade on the guard of the rapier as a thrust is made. On the other hand, I think such a thrust would be less successful against a powerful cut make from over the right shoulder in which the hilt is strongly torqued, resulting in the blade being much more horizontal as it impacted the rapier.