The origin of the Florysh?

[Stewart Sackett]

I was just wondering how the Florysh came to be a part of ARMA practices. Are there historical accounts of “Floryshing” as a training tool or is it a modern invention? In either case, what is the essential rationale behind its use?

[Axel Pettersson]

I read (I think here on the ARMA webpage) of spiegelfechten, wich seems to be more or less the same thing (sounds like "mirrorfighting" to me).

Either way, flouryshes are to me an excellent way to pracitse speed, intent, footwork, stamina, strenght, posture, immediate recognition of situation etc etc etc.

I do the same in mma for boxing practise.

[Randall Pleasant]

Definitions & Study Terminology (http://www.thearma.org/terms2.htm)

“To Flourish” – An English term from at least the mid 1300s used in the brief English sword text, MS 39564, c. mid-1400s, to refer to the brandishing of a weapon with large showy movements during practice or prior to play or fight. Used now to mean a practice routine of cuts and thrusts with appropriate footwork.

[Stewart Sackett]

I understand the root & purpose of shadow boxing, but the Florysh (as I understand it) is more of a ‘built-your-own-kata’; a pattern of movements, which are repeated each practice.

What I’m trying to understand is the rationale behind training in a pattern & whether it is historical, a modern invention or the result of transference from training in other martial arts.

[Mike Cartier]

its not a fixed pattern at all IMHO, its a semi-fixed pattern that changes constantly. Meyer's cutting drills for example have several variables which give much needed depth and allow for many different versions of the drill.

Fixed patterns are great for a time but you have to evolove into non fixed patterns. The purpose of it is the same as any martial training, building the necessary attributes.

[Ben Michels]

the Florysh (as I understand it) is more of a ‘built-your-own-kata’; a pattern of movements, which are repeated each practice.

I gathered it was kind of the opposite; not so much a pattern of movements you use each practice (although that would also seem to fit the definition) but a random stringing together of techniques to get your body used to flowing between them.

One may say beforehand 'alright I'm going to do this, this and then this' which is what I usually do as I'm still getting the point where it's all instantaneous... however one could also just simply start and as soon as one strike or defensive measure is complete another is begun to keep the flow of movement going.

Edit: I see I need to stop going away from the keyboard while typing responses. =D

[Stacy Clifford]

I understand the root & purpose of shadow boxing, but the Florysh (as I understand it) is more of a ‘built-your-own-kata’; a pattern of movements, which are repeated each practice.

Actually I've heard John describe the florysh numerous times as shadow boxing with a sword essentially. Everybody has elements they like and use more than others, but I rarely start a florysh with anything in particular in mind, I just start and see where it takes me and never do the same florysh twice. I will try to purposefully throw in certain techniques I want to work on, but not in a specific sequence.

[Jake_Norwood]

A flourysh is much more like shadow boxing, and not a "Kata" at all. No two flouryshes should ever, ever look alike, nor should one be repeated.

If you're doing something like Meyer's cutting drills then you're doing drills and exercises. Those are "rehearsed," but they should also be "forgotten" as soon as they're "learned," lest you become predictable.

Jake

[Stewart Sackett]

A flourysh is much more like shadow boxing, and not a "Kata" at all. No two flouryshes should ever, ever look alike, nor should one be repeated.

If you're doing something like Meyer's cutting drills then you're doing drills and exercises. Those are "rehearsed," but they should also be "forgotten" as soon as they're "learned," lest you become predictable.

Jake

Thanks for the clairification. I'm much more comfortable with that understanding of the term, as I'm always warry of training myself to a pattern.

[Randall Pleasant]

Stewart

Keep in mind that a Kata is used to teach one or more techniques.

On the other hand, a flourysh is a physical and mental expression of techinques already learned. A flourysh is an unstructured practice of all that you know.

[Richard Strey]

No matter what you call the excercise, there are different goals one might wish to accomplish.
If the idea is to drill a certain movement and the flow from one particular move into another, drills like Joachim Meyer's (in the Longsword section, Chapter 10) are certainly one way to go. Through them, you can work on your precision regarding a singular movement or certain transtions.
They are not neccessarily meant to practice movement patterns that would happen in a fight.

[Jake_Norwood]

Good point, Richard.

Jake

[John_Clements]

I was just wondering how the Florysh came to be a part of ARMA practices. Are there historical accounts of “Floryshing” as a training tool or is it a modern invention? In either case, what is the essential rationale behind its use?

Yes. But, not that they were part of any one master's training program, as we have no evidence really of any Medieval/Renaissance fencing classroom exercise program or practice/instruction system. But substantial material on this will be presented in a chapter in one of my future books next year.

JC