where did a knight live?(subject changed)

[Jake_Norwood]

Disapprove of sparring, eh? Yup, you'll probably start something.

The ARMA rabidly endorses sparring with intent, as no other activity will hone the reflexes and solidify technique like using against someone who doesn't want it to work in a chaotic environment.

And I'll fight anyone who diagrees, and beat them...because if you don't spar, you can't fight well. With 6 months of ARMA sparring experience I was able to beat an advanced Shin-Ken-Do student with minimal effort--not because he wasn't skilled (he was very skillful), but he had never had to use his skills under that kind of pressure, in that sort of environment. After a few weeks of sparring he got quite good.

Sparring is absolutely necessary to be a fighter of any kind. Anything else is dancing.

You wrote, "In today’s world people can’t except that level of hostility and therefore the sparring becomes half hearted and useless. " I assume you meant "accept that level of hostility." I think you have a valid point, but recognizing this simply reinforces the principle of training with intent, in earnest, instead of simply "play fighting." Play fighting will build your reflexes, but it's also true that a certain degree of, um, violence is necessary. I've broken a bone and bled lots training and sparring. This degree of intent, as you point out, if absent reduces the value of sparring considerably. So you need that degree of intent and friendly hostility. You see it in Dojos, all over military training camps, and amongst serious ARMA practicioners. Just ask anyone on this board that's fought me, John C., Shane Smith, Tim Sheetz, or Stew Feil if we don't hit like we mean it.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on sparring just because you haven't seen it done right yet. Unless, of course you can't accept that level of "hostility," though I'd call it agression, not hostility per se. If you can't, however, you're not studying a killing art...you're studying dancing modeled after a killing art.

Make sense?

Jake

[Gene Tausk]

Disapprove of sparring, eh? Yup, you'll probably start something.

The ARMA rabidly endorses sparring with intent, as no other activity will hone the reflexes and solidify technique like using against someone who doesn't want it to work in a chaotic environment.

And I'll fight anyone who diagrees, and beat them...because if you don't spar, you can't fight well. With 6 months of ARMA sparring experience I was able to beat an advanced Shin-Ken-Do student with minimal effort--not because he wasn't skilled (he was very skillful), but he had never had to use his skills under that kind of pressure, in that sort of environment. After a few weeks of sparring he got quite good.

Sparring is absolutely necessary to be a fighter of any kind. Anything else is dancing.

You wrote, "In today’s world people can’t except that level of hostility and therefore the sparring becomes half hearted and useless. " I assume you meant "accept that level of hostility." I think you have a valid point, but recognizing this simply reinforces the principle of training with intent, in earnest, instead of simply "play fighting." Play fighting will build your reflexes, but it's also true that a certain degree of, um, violence is necessary. I've broken a bone and bled lots training and sparring. This degree of intent, as you point out, if absent reduces the value of sparring considerably. So you need that degree of intent and friendly hostility. You see it in Dojos, all over military training camps, and amongst serious ARMA practicioners. Just ask anyone on this board that's fought me, John C., Shane Smith, Tim Sheetz, or Stew Feil if we don't hit like we mean it.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on sparring just because you haven't seen it done right yet. Unless, of course you can't accept that level of "hostility," though I'd call it agression, not hostility per se. If you can't, however, you're not studying a killing art...you're studying dancing modeled after a killing art.

Make sense?

Jake

What Jake said. Word.

[antonyjcummins]

God, I did start something! Sorry.

I have done lots of sparring in my time, I do value it. In its correct context. But there is still a limit to sparring. I take all your points on board. The only problem that comes (for me) is sparring only gets you so far. Your comments were based on fighting experience, and as a result some people have a lot, some people don’t. Unfortunately I grew up in a rough area and I have had to fight countless times. And sparring is not match in any way to real combat (again in my opinion) a fight is totally different when you are snapping peoples knees (or as my instructor has had to do on two occasions take out somebody’s eye). I was one set upon by 8 men and then once buy 6. And too be truthful I feel that sparring is a good exercise in combat awareness but it does not measure your skill in reality. Psychological effects change reality. In a controlled environment people can stop and they know there is control. However, a man with a knife who wants to kill you in the reality of it will break the best sparring partner in the world unless he has the psychological means to defeat his fear. For example, my old friend was the European taeqwondo chap in his weight, he nailed me in all sparring, every time I would lose, I don’t think I won once. But in reality his nerves failed him. He and I both knew when It came to it, I had to protect us both, and did do on a few occasions, I think this is proof of the limits of sparring. So to go back to your argument you are saying that people can’t be good if they don’t spar. Well I have to split agree with you, maybe I should have been clearer. In the beginning you should spar and deal with the hard external principles of martial arts. I totally agree, I did this for years and it does help build combat knowledge. But I think there is a point, for people with combat experience where sparring becomes a game and is almost useless ( in my opinion) when you know you can fight then I think its time to move away from sparring and concentrate on body mechanics, natural movement and the true development of subconscious reaction.

Furthermore, when people say win in sparring, what does that men? Getting a hit? The human body can sustain massive damage, it is possible to die after three days of having your stomach spilt. So hitting someone in sparring does not mean win, in the past you were dealing with religious zealots who did not care if they died, so cutting an arm off or spilling someone’s guts did not mean a ‘win’ it meant be careful because now he is probably angry and will be more dangerous. Some people will go on till they die. To put this in a modern context I had a fight one night with a group of lads (only one really attacked me) but I was just walking past and he came at me, in all honesty he was high on drugs, and he reminded me of these zealot people, but I had both fingers in his eyes and he was screaming, they were about to burst and I had to let go of him, I would have blinded him for life, so I had to come off, but he still came at me, again and again, in the end I had to get into a car to drive away (at which point bricks came flying) but the point is I technically won, but I would have had to kill him to stop him, now go to medieval England and give that same man a sword and training and the right to kill? A change from the sparring situation!

As for the dancer comments, I understand what you mean. I see where you are coming from but I think people have to realize that the people who learn in this method today are usually non fighters and go to that because there is no sparring. However they art itself is still deadly, I have moved to one of these dancing arts and I no longer spar. But out of the mountains of people 95% of them are non fighters but the 5% who are and use these dancing style are unbelievably dangerous. I trained with a bone doctor in England who does dot spar in any way (after 30 years of karate sparring) and what he could do was sick. I didn’t know pain came in so many shapes! (any body who disbelieves in pressure points, look no further)

Ok I think I have made my point, my apologies if any of the language is strong in here, it is only my intent to state that the deadly arts we all love are truly deadly and that building ego and self confidence (which I hope people don’t have)is dangerous through sparring, it’s a dangerous world, in truth, and I think we are all here to learn chivalry and the arts for benefit, but there will always be idiots out there. So good luck everybody with your chosen method.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Antony.

I think I do better understand where you are coming from, and while I can agree with some of your points, for the most point I stand behind the necessity of sparring. I want to hit a few of your comments directly...

And sparring is not match in any way to real combat (again in my opinion) a fight is totally different when you are snapping peoples knees (or as my instructor has had to do on two occasions take out somebody’s eye). I was one set upon by 8 men and then once buy 6. And too be truthful I feel that sparring is a good exercise in combat awareness but it does not measure your skill in reality. Psychological effects change reality. In a controlled environment people can stop and they know there is control. However, a man with a knife who wants to kill you in the reality of it will break the best sparring partner in the world unless he has the psychological means to defeat his fear.

You are absolutely correct that sparring is not (usually) fighting, and that the psychological needs in sparring are different from the psychological needs in a real-combat situation. Training, however, is used to overcome those psychological barriers to meet the needs of performing under an actual fight-or-flight situation, as Dr. Dave Grossman (US Army LTC, Retired) points out in his books On Killing and On Combat. Modern training practices which include sparring and it's equivalent in the world of firearms have proven to increase a soldier's ability to perform under real fire, in a real fight. This extends, of course to our art as well.

If you have never sparred, never been injured, never attacked another human being in any fashion (even in training), then you are at a clear disadvantage should you ever have to do so "for real." It's true, of course, that many "untrained" people from more violent cultures or upbringings don't require some kind of formalized training to throw a punch, hurt another person, pull the trigger, whatever...but their culture has acted as their training, both desensitizing them to the negative psychological effects and enhancing their performace in a "real" fight.

You are correct that sparring does not measure your ability as a "real" fighter in reality, though I disagree that it doesn't measure your skill, so long as you're willing to separate "skill" from "capability" a little bit. I have the skill, let's say, to cut a man's arm off...but am I capable of that? I think this is what you are referring to when you say that sparring doesn't really measure skill.

I return to the studies of Dr. Grossman and others, however, which confirm that if you pretend to cut off an arm on a regular basis, with intent, then your training will kick in and you will do so automatically...perhaps regretting it greatly later, but the deed is no less done.

So to go back to your argument you are saying that people can’t be good if they don’t spar. Well I have to split agree with you, maybe I should have been clearer. In the beginning you should spar and deal with the hard external principles of martial arts. I totally agree, I did this for years and it does help build combat knowledge. But I think there is a point, for people with combat experience where sparring becomes a game and is almost useless ( in my opinion) when you know you can fight then I think its time to move away from sparring and concentrate on body mechanics, natural movement and the true development of subconscious reaction.

Unfortunately I haven't seen any evidence of this in martial arts, sports, or in the military...it's all hype, in my opinion/experience. If you don't train, you can't perform. If you don't spar when you train, you won't fight well. Modern day MMA fighters and professional soldiers are good examples of this--they "spar" incessantly, and are unbeatable in their element because of it.

The real telling comment here is "where sparring becomes a game." In this I agree absolutely. Much sparring, including sparring that I do, is "for fun," and does little more than hone reflexes and allow me to refine experimental technique, etc. I have to say, however, that "true development of subconscous reaction" doesn't come from kata! So I wonder what kind of training you're referring to.

I know that, at least in this art, I can fight. After two years of doing limited solo drilling, knife-fighting, and grappling, however, my skill in swordsmanship had declined considerably. I began training through drill and partner exercises...and found that I had lost very little. So I sparred...and was destroyed. I was afraid of getting hit with mock weapons! I didn't move well, I didn't react well. It was not until I started sparring with a "warrior mindset," not as a game, that I overcame that. Sparring, not dancing, not punching bags, restored my ability to access those skills and those reflexes in an oppositional scenario.

Furthermore, when people say win in sparring, what does that men? Getting a hit? The human body can sustain massive damage, it is possible to die after three days of having your stomach spilt.

[snip]

...in the end I had to get into a car to drive away (at which point bricks came flying) but the point is I technically won, but I would have had to kill him to stop him, now go to medieval England and give that same man a sword and training and the right to kill? A change from the sparring situation!

Part of the problem you've identified is "winning" and "losing..." which are game terms. If you're training for a race do you ever "win" on training day? Of course not--you either prepare well, or not. This doesn't change, even if the race never happens. It's true that when we spar we usually go to the first clean, supposedly disabling hit. Is this to declare a winner, or to reassess, to say, "hmm, I got hit pretty badly...what did I do wrong?" or "Hey, I hit that guy in the neck...what did I do right, so I can do it again?" We shouldn't be saying, "hahahhaha I won you suck!" at least not unless we want a "real" fight on our hands.

In your example you didn't win, because you ran. Or you did win, because you left without sustaining any damage. Winning is subjective in most real-life fights that don't end in death or maiming (which is most of them). The real question here is, did your training serve you in the fight? Once you got your stomach in place, steeled up your nervers, and applied your training, did you accomplish what you wanted? From the story I'd say that you did. Your training told you what to do, told you when going any further would lead do damage you didn't want to do, and told you when to get out of the mess. From what I read your training won that day.

Would you have done as well had you never sparred? Would you have done better if you had sparred under similar conditions more frequently -- perhaps on a street, not in the dojo, perhaps on the ground with controlled "saftey" eye gouges and things, perhaps with a partner who wasn't trying to win but who was trying to simulate a real combatant?

As for the dancer comments, I understand what you mean. I see where you are coming from but I think people have to realize that the people who learn in this method today are usually non fighters and go to that because there is no sparring. However they art itself is still deadly, I have moved to one of these dancing arts and I no longer spar. But out of the mountains of people 95% of them are non fighters but the 5% who are and use these dancing style are unbelievably dangerous. I trained with a bone doctor in England who does dot spar in any way (after 30 years of karate sparring) and what he could do was sick. I didn’t know pain came in so many shapes! (any body who disbelieves in pressure points, look no further)

I'll be honest...I'm a little lost here. Do I need to realize that most people who study RMA are non-fighters? What does that mean? Ha, now we have to define "fighter!" Seriously, though, what I see in your core assumptions is that this art isn't studied as a combat art, but as something else. You're correct--many people, maybe most of them--study this art as a form of confidence-building fantasy dance. But that's not why we at the ARMA are here. We may (often) fall short of our own goals and ideals here, but the bottom line is that we strongly, strongly, strongly feel that this art needs to be approached as a life-or-death subject, as a modern and historical combative, and our training needs to reflect that sort of mentality.

I don't believe that your "5%" are dangerous. I believe that if they went up against a person with an equivalent martial attitude who sparred regularly, they'd be eaten alive. The early UFCs showed this to be true time and time again, as so-called martial arts masters were torn apart by 20 and 30 year old wrestlers (who do nothing but spar) and BJJ guys (who do nothing but spar) and brawlers like the hit-or-miss Tank Abbot (who, I suppose, did nothing but fight and maybe spar a little). Pressure points are great if you can get ahold of a guy's hand, wrist, arm, or whatever. But if that same guy is hitting you in the head with his elbow? You're lost. Because he's used to hitting someone in the head with his elbow when that other someone is trying to twist or pull him somehow.

I'm not saying your bone doctor can't dish out the pain! I am saying that I don't believe he can dish it out while I'm mashing my forehead into his teeth. That comes from sparring...I know of no kata that teaches that.

Ok I think I have made my point, my apologies if any of the language is strong in here, it is only my intent to state that the deadly arts we all love are truly deadly and that building ego and self confidence (which I hope people don’t have)is dangerous through sparring, it’s a dangerous world, in truth, and I think we are all here to learn chivalry and the arts for benefit, but there will always be idiots out there. So good luck everybody with your chosen method.

Don't worry about your language. We're talking about ideas here, and that tends to get people a little excited...then we're on the internet, which makes everyone a little too sensitive. So don't sweat it.

You say you hope people don't have ego and self confidence. Ego...can go to far, but without self-confidence you can't fight anyone at all--the historical masters tell us about this, actually: "don't learn to fence if you have a fearful heart, for he with a fearful heart is always defeated," or something to that end.

I'm not hear to learn Chivalry, though it's a nice side-effect. I'm hear to learn to use a sword, a staff, a dagger, my hands...to cause pain and death. To think otherwise is to dance or to role-play.

BUT! God forbid I should ever have to use these or any other arts to cause pain or death! Nonetheless, that's what they're for, isn't it? Sure, there are "right" times to use them--defense of self, familiy, country (oh, and honor and God and all that old-time stuff, too, if you ask the historical masters).

Dancing and role-playing are fine...but they're not fighting, and they're not why the ARMA is here.

Best,
Jake

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Mr. Cummins,

Your concept of zen fighting is interesting. I have heard that an empty mind is good to fight on. Which I suppose can be true, but always fighting like that means you will never learn. As far as being able to do things that are amazing and never sparring. I can do some wicked cool things when I flourysh. But will they ever work in a fight? Probably not. Sparring is an invaluable addition to ANY martial system. Think of the oldest martial art there is, wrestling. You can practice on your own all of the moves you think you will need. But when in a real situation, where people are trying to beat you, your shadow-wrestling will only give you so much. But practicing wrestling, by wrestling will give you the edge that you need to win against a trained opponent.
As for your boast about beating people, and almost ripping a man's eye out. Well, in another post it has been questioned who you are, so I question your stories. What I can say is that I have met a man who has taken on 12 trained men and defeated them, without permanently injuring them. He got that control from sparring. He practiced fighting, by fighting. You question the reality of sparring, we have a saying, "With Intent." When we do our work, it is with the same intensity that one should have when really fighting, but with the control of knowing these people are your friends and partners. But, psychologically, when sparring with intent you are fighting. With control, and with intent.
As for what determines winning, well, In the NTP 1.0 we learn that if you get injured at all it is unacceptable. So the only clear winner in a fight or in sparring is the person who is untouched (Jake's comments here about winning are more accurate). You also say that one should be careful after a wounding, because that means that the person would be more dangerous and wouldn't necessarily die from losing an arm. Weren't you asking about wounds in another post? Well, you studied with the bone doctor in England. He taught you about pressure points, right? He would probably taught you about nerves and about blood then. Loss of blood equals loss of strength. Injury of nerves equal great amounts of pain. A wound doesn't end the fight, that is true, and everyone on this board will say the same thing. But we do not teach stopping after a single touch either. We do not teach sword-tag. We learn Sword Fighting. That is what sparring is. Perhaps you should read more of the essays found on the site and learn more about our sparring style before trying to go against our teaching methods.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Your concept of zen fighting is interesting. I have heard that an empty mind is good to fight on.

Er...I studied aikido before I began to learn WMA (and am still studying it right now), and one thing the sensei makes clear is that there is no way of fighting with an "empty mind" except if you have trained so frequently and so strenuously that the movement patterns of the martial arts become ingrained in the subconscious and in muscle memory. So even this thing is impossible to achieve without at least controlled sparring.

(And despite the fact that most branches of aikido don't hold competitions, all of them do involve controled sparring and what can be said to be free-play with the exception that the practitioner is not supposed to be the one attacking first. Counterattacking, though, is perfectly legitimate.)

[s_taillebois]

Gentry, Mayhaps a conceptual distinction needs to be made here; between sparring with the intent of learning the art (and respecting it) and that of the extremes of unfortunate necessity.

In large, many of the weapons studied herein are not generally carried in the public common. And those that could be, such as daggers and stylets or staffs, perhaps the less openly said...the better. Although there is some crossover in modern needs, many will, with good fortune, never have the need to lift a staff or sword with the same intent as our antecendents. Perhaps to imply too far that the context is the literally the same is inadvisable.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Er...I studied aikido before I began to learn WMA (and am still studying it right now), and one thing the sensei makes clear is that there is no way of fighting with an "empty mind" except if you have trained so frequently and so strenuously that the movement patterns of the martial arts become ingrained in the subconscious and in muscle memory. So even this thing is impossible to achieve without at least controlled sparring.

(And despite the fact that most branches of aikido don't hold competitions, all of them do involve controled sparring and what can be said to be free-play with the exception that the practitioner is not supposed to be the one attacking first. Counterattacking, though, is perfectly legitimate.)

I was simply summarizing his statements, not condoning. I wasn't saying that we teach that way, I wasn't even saying that I was trying to fight that way (in fact I disagree with it), I was simply saying that I had heard from people that it is a type of fighting, and that the person who told me about it said it was good. That was all.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Well, Jeremiah, before this gets hairy, let me clarify that I was supporting you and Jake by showing that an Eastern martial arts that is quite harmless (in the sense that it seeks to subdue the enemy without doing any permanent harm) still considers a form of sparring to be an essential and indispensable part of its training.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Clarification aknowledged, my apologies. I get it now. I am sorry I was coming across too strong. Hair has been removed.

[antonyjcummins]

Ok guys, well this is getting complex, a million questions, I will try to address some of them.

Ok I think we are barking up the same tree but on different sides. let me state, I do agree with sparring, as a beginning gesture and as long as its seen as only sparing then yes all is well. I was talking more about people who get false confidence from said hostilities. And further more I have not attacked your system in any way, I don’t know your system that’s why im asking?

• “I return to the studies of Dr. Grossman and others, however, which confirm that if you pretend to cut off an arm on a regular basis, with intent, then your training will kick in and you will do so automatically” this comment is what I mean exactly, if I train it will happen, but in sparring, or in my training, you can’t do the techniques as they would kill, maim or disable someone, there is no half hearted maybe this would snap, maybe not, it would snap, and we learn to understand the bodies natural response. And in sparring the response to a supposed break, stab, whatever is not correct and therefore not realistic.
• I gave up kata a long time ago.. subconscious reaction is a simple concept. When we enter to true danger our subconscious reactions take over. Have you been driving and someone jumps in the road. The next thing you realise is that you swerved out of the way and then you remember the events after. This is the reaction im talking about. It works much faster then conscious, so anyone who says they have had a true fight in the conscious form has not had a real fight, its quick, un comprehendible, you only remember doing things after and its over quick, the events come later when you remember them. If you train your subconscious, like the car you act accordingly.

• The comment about my ‘eye fight’ that was in my days of sparring lots, and to be honest he was too easy to beat, I just had to decide not to blind him, its not about number of people or boasting, he was easy to beat and the training I had worked. But if I was doing the training im doing now I could have done other things and restrained and controlled the person. The problem was the 15 lads running through the door! Had to go, decide he was high and did not deserve to be blind and in good old England one would go to prison for that.
• Dear jake, my non fighters comment was not for your organisation at all my friend. This was aimed at the lumps of flesh called humans that I had to train with. Some people are poets, some mathematicians, artists and some are fighters etc, some blend. Did you know dante went to war? I bet he was mint. And when I commented on your dancers thing, again I meant people I know, not you good folk. People go to a club twice a week and think they are warriors. Sad. People trained all there life, and they knew how to do it.
• Jake I have to completely disagree with you here, completely, that cage fighting malarkey is a waste of time, its set up for commercial gain. The evidence that you are talking about, martial artists verses sparring. No go. These ‘martial artists’ are not experts not matter what the credentials (which I may add is a load of rubbish anyway) cage fighting is big men hitting each other till one falls down. That’s why martial arts were invented to stop people like that. If you introduced a knife into the cage watch the difference, and all martial arts deal with weapons. That’s war. Cage fighting is a mock semi ruled sport that does not imitate real fights in anyway what so ever. I have watched these ‘fights’ and in reality with weapons, they would be dead in second, they leave all the armour weak points open nearly all the time, they have no awareness of where the hands of there opponents are. You can’t take out eyes hit the throat, all the area that change fight dynamics. And I have seen many martial ‘arts masters’ and met only four that were truly masters. These people wouldn’t entertain going into a cage fight, they no its hype and they would be enable to meet them strength for strength (which is all it is) , if they weren’t allowed to use all the aspects of a fight they would be doing a sport. I wont go more into this. In my opinion cage fighting is the furthest thing from a real fight, it’s a dangerous sport and nothing more (again in my opinion)
• Pressure points, this is the least understood topic of the day. I have only met a hand full of people who get this. There are multiple factors. Walking gait, opening and closing of the bodies weak points and application. It is not a case of “grabbing” a guys hand. This is a comment that makes me think of conscious combat. We like to say gifts, in a fight things land and you come into contact, through analyses of the body and points. On occasion you touch an area you need, at that point you apply. The bone doctor, tells me off for looking for these, “stop looking antony! They are gifts” ringing in my ear. Plus if you were smashing your elbow in a face you have opened the heart meridian and a million points, and my instructor (from south Africa, bit tapped in the head) tests this all the time, he doesn’t mind you smashing his teeth in, and I have seen someone biting niple nearly off, (in training for a laugh) and smashing him in the face them he smiles and whispers its time to stop, the next thing is the attacker trying to breath, lack of breath the result of tissue manipulation. But pressure point and tissue manipulation is something I cant make people believe, but I’m lucky enough to have trained with good people. And I have seen the proof of the pudding! Hahah plus you say trying to pull or twist someone, again you are talking of the conscious mind. If there is no gift or point then move on, its all about freedom of movement plus natural reaction to an external stimuli
• Mr backhus. My stories were not boasting ( I didn’t like this comment) I don’t boast, im English! We are reserved ! hahaha. We are talking about reality, this is reality and that was my experience, so I told it and who is questioning who I am? Im me, and im talking to you, that who I am. And the blood loss thing, of course I know that. But there are a few (only a few who will go on) I think you missed the point of that comment. Its about the concept of winning. And your friend who defeated twelve men sounds like he knows what hes doing. But fighting twelve men and 1 master are different. I’d presser to stand 30 second in a fight with a master then beat a thousand men. Numbers are not important. When I fought 8 men I technically lost the fight if you will. But in the end I chased them away. But 8 against one? This was not a win for them, I should be dead! 8 men should have killed me. So the number is irrelevant, completely. A trained man is worth a thousand. Please don’t question my honesty, I have been honest with everyone here and I am always. There is no pride in fighting, only pride in defence and defending loved ones I feel. My stories are a black marks on my life and of a time I was not has happy as now.

• and one thing the sensei makes clear is that there is no way of fighting with an "empty mind" except if you have trained so frequently and so strenuously that the movement patterns of the martial arts become ingrained in the subconscious and in muscle memory. So even this thing is impossible to achieve without at least controlled sparring.

Dear curtis, you have answered your own question. People call themselves martial artists, but they practice the art, not master it, we are talking about people who did this day in day out, to them it was subconscious and muscle memory is the key, you hit the nail on the head, perfect. A man born into a noble family, enough money to not work and train all day, he would be a mountain of muscle memory, going back to my point.

Ok I think I have answered most. Thanks for the comments guys

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Antony (et al).

Ok I think we are barking up the same tree but on different sides. let me state, I do agree with sparring, as a beginning gesture and as long as its seen as only sparing then yes all is well. I was talking more about people who get false confidence from said hostilities. And further more I have not attacked your system in any way, I don’t know your system that’s why im asking?

Have you been through the articles on our site? Seen the ARMA training methodology? Hopefully you'll find what you're looking for there, as far as an introduction to our approach to training RMA.

I think that we agree on some points, yes, but our fundamental disagreement here is the value of sparring. In short, I say "Sparring = important at all levels," you're saying "Sparring = good for beginners." We agree that sparring is only sparring, not real violence. We disagree, I think, on the degree to which sparring can prepare you for a real fight. And a few other points, continued below...

“I return to the studies of Dr. Grossman and others, however, which confirm that if you pretend to cut off an arm on a regular basis, with intent, then your training will kick in and you will do so automatically” this comment is what I mean exactly, if I train it will happen, but in sparring, or in my training, you can’t do the techniques as they would kill, maim or disable someone, there is no half hearted maybe this would snap, maybe not, it would snap, and we learn to understand the bodies natural response. And in sparring the response to a supposed break, stab, whatever is not correct and therefore not realistic.

What you're saying is more true about unarmed styles than armed styles, I think. It's difficult or even impossible to perform a correct arm-break or even a punch without really punching or causing some damage to the arm. But with a sparring sword I can hit a guy at cutting-force and not injure him. So I get to train at speed, with force and intent beyond what I can do as a grappler. When you spar as as grappler I think the primary real-life application you learn is leverage, pressure, feeling your opponent's intent, etc. With a sword, though, you can really hit the guy as if you were taking that arm off...it's fantastic training.

I gave up kata a long time ago.. subconscious reaction is a simple concept. When we enter to true danger our subconscious reactions take over. Have you been driving and someone jumps in the road. The next thing you realise is that you swerved out of the way and then you remember the events after. This is the reaction im talking about. It works much faster then conscious, so anyone who says they have had a true fight in the conscious form has not had a real fight, its quick, un comprehendible, you only remember doing things after and its over quick, the events come later when you remember them. If you train your subconscious, like the car you act accordingly.

I'm familiar with a few modern combatives/self defense schools that talk about this concept. But you're telling me "what" to train, not "how." How, other than sparring, for example, can you effectively train your subconscious. How, other than sparring, can you confirm that it works without really fighting a guy?

If you can't train it, what good is it? If you can't test its effectiveness, how can you know it works?

The comment about my ‘eye fight’ that was in my days of sparring lots, and to be honest he was too easy to beat, I just had to decide not to blind him, its not about number of people or boasting, he was easy to beat and the training I had worked. But if I was doing the training im doing now I could have done other things and restrained and controlled the person

...how are you training now? What are your amazing secrets? I'm not mocking you here, although I am calling you out a little. What you're saying flies in the face of a decent breadth of experience. How could you prove it to me, if we were in the same room?

Dear jake, my non fighters comment was not for your organisation at all my friend. This was aimed at the lumps of flesh called humans that I had to train with. Some people are poets, some mathematicians, artists and some are fighters etc, some blend. Did you know dante went to war? I bet he was mint. And when I commented on your dancers thing, again I meant people I know, not you good folk. People go to a club twice a week and think they are warriors. Sad. People trained all there life, and they knew how to do it.

Okay, I had to read if a few times, but I think I see what you're saying, and if I'm right, then I agree. I think. You're saying that few if any of us really, honestly, classify as "warriors" in this day and age, and even if we can, the kind of "war" that we engage in probably doesn't include much in the way of swords. So yes, this is true. And yes, honestly, even the most aggressive, intense trainee of modern swordsmanship will probably never use it. But we can still train *as if we were going to use it,* which is an important element of the ARMA approach (since you asked).

As a quick (tangental) aside, just going to war doesn't impress me much...I've been to war, after all. I'm curious, though. Was Dante a foot soldier or other man-at-arms of some sort? I'm afraind I've read the Divine Comedy, and that's about the end of my Dante-lore.

Jake I have to completely disagree with you here, completely, that cage fighting malarkey is a waste of time, its set up for commercial gain. The evidence that you are talking about, martial artists verses sparring. No go. These ‘martial artists’ are not experts not matter what the credentials (which I may add is a load of rubbish anyway) cage fighting is big men hitting each other till one falls down. That’s why martial arts were invented to stop people like that. If you introduced a knife into the cage watch the difference, and all martial arts deal with weapons. That’s war. Cage fighting is a mock semi ruled sport that does not imitate real fights in anyway what so ever. I have watched these ‘fights’ and in reality with weapons, they would be dead in second, they leave all the armour weak points open nearly all the time, they have no awareness of where the hands of there opponents are. You can’t take out eyes hit the throat, all the area that change fight dynamics. And I have seen many martial ‘arts masters’ and met only four that were truly masters. These people wouldn’t entertain going into a cage fight, they no its hype and they would be enable to meet them strength for strength (which is all it is) , if they weren’t allowed to use all the aspects of a fight they would be doing a sport. I wont go more into this. In my opinion cage fighting is the furthest thing from a real fight, it’s a dangerous sport and nothing more (again in my opinion)

Whoa, now, are we talking about fighting or about war? Not the same thing. You also make a lot of pretty wide comments here--so many I can't really afford to address them at the moment, which isn't fair, I confess.

I have trained at the US Combatives School with some of these cage fighters. The skills they have are used daily in real wars to good effect. Likewise, there isn't one of them that I would fight unarmed, or evenwith a knife (and I'm pretty damn good with a knife). These guys train and fight all the time, and those fights--sportified though they are--are more "real" than any fight most of us will ever get into.

You wrote, "These ‘martial artists’ are not experts not matter what the credentials (which I may add is a load of rubbish anyway) cage fighting is big men hitting each other till one falls down." Um...you're wrong, but even if you were right, how is "big men hitting each other till one falls down" not fighting? Sounds pretty sincere to me. You also invoke credentials...sounds like master worship to me. What do credentials have to do with anything once the gloves come off and fingers start breaking?

Your point about MMA fighters being unprepared for weapons is largely accurate, though your comment about all martial arts including weapons is unfounded. I can think of dozens of so-called martial arts which have no basis in weapons whatsoever; those that have only a minor relationship to weapons are generally so terrible as to teach exactly the kind of thing that is worst about weapon use. At least an MMA fighter understands speed, distance, timing, agression, and what it means to get hurt...all of which are learned through sparring.

Your martial arts masters, I'm afraid, are hype until they prove otherwise. It's a convenient excuse for these "masters" to say it's all hype, and little more. I, for example, know that I'd have my ass handed to me, regardless of the rules...unless I had a sword. But even then I better be "on," or their superior sense of timing, speed, and conditioning will win out. You don't fight a weapon, after all--you fight the wielder. If a masters says, "I don't want to go to UFC 'cause it's not my thing...it's not worth it to me" that's fine...but he can't say that he's better than those guys, either. It's dishonest.

Re: Pressure points. Uh-huh. Does ki come with that?

Seriously, I know that there are "pressure points," but these are issues of nerve centers and leverage planes. In order to apply a pressure point on someone you have to make contact with them. You learn not to get hit in sparring. Thus, sparring beats out pressure points, which offer no defense.

Anyway, this is actually a fantastic discussion. It's important that we really think about the "why" of sparring, and of it's limitations, and recognize what it does--and doesn't--do for us.

Jake

[Nathan Dexter]

I dunno, I think that sparring is the single most important training tool in any martial art. it gives you a chance to practice your skills in an environment without getting seriously injured (or killed) to say otherwise is absurd. Also if your confident with your fighting skills than the psycological effect will be greatly lessened. Besides, if there were no sparring, than the only way to train would be to go around, picking life or death fights with other people.would you rather do that? Sparring isn't made to be the "perfect" fight simulator, its the next best thing.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Re: Pressure points. Uh-huh. Does ki come with that?

In the more serious Eastern martial arts schools, ki is not even an abstract concept--it's just an awareness of the opponent's energy flow as you sense it through your evaluation of his physical movements and mental intentions. In other words, they consider it as nothing more than having practiced and sparred to the level that you can anticipate the opponent's actions instead of merely reacting to them.

An equally accurate (but far more succinct) way to explain it would be by saying that the real traditional Eastern schools (as opposed to the flashier ones) teach it just the same way European masters would have taught about Nach und Vor. I still don't understand why lots of people still think it's something mysterious and mystical.

[Jake_Norwood]

That's a good point. Ki, just translates to breath. So breath, and "energy," which is really application of physics, intent, etc., is an important part of fighting and whatever else.

But...

An equally accurate (but far more succinct) way to explain it would be by saying that the real traditional Eastern schools (as opposed to the flashier ones) teach it just the same way European masters would have taught about Nach und Vor. I still don't understand why lots of people still think it's something mysterious and mystical.

People think it's something mystical because there are lots of people that advertise it that way. So when you talk to a "hard external" school martial artist he'll tell you that ki is a good way of looking at breath, energy, etc...all pretty valid. But if you ask the Napoleon Dynamite generation about ki you get something out of Manga.

Words mean what people think they mean, after all, not what the dictionary might have once said.

Jake