Making a safe, light blade simulator

[Dylan Reaves]

First of all, hello all, glad to be here, amazed I found this organization; its incredible. That there are this many people interested realistic sparring and historical research is a nice thing to find out. Anyway, some friends and I are working on making our own weapons based on the builds suggested on this site. My preferred fighting style (from experimentation with wooden training blades my friend had that we don't used for fear of seriously injuring each other) is using a light, long, thin sword to block and move quickly then take quick stabs whenever my partner leaves an opening. However, none of the builds on here that aren't labeled "Old" tell how to make a sword like that. Any suggestions for a beginner? Should I just use the "Old" one? My friends are all using up-to-date models, so I'm the only one with this problem. Much appreciated!

[Max Lancaster]

Welcome!

[Will Adamson]

It kind of sounds like you're talking about what's called winding. Padded sword designs are notoriously bad in the bind and wind department. The addition of foam makes them stick together where a steel sword, or even a wood waster, will slide and offer different performance on a given technique generally. You can still do it, it's just not their forte.

As long as you're not going full power and are using good control, there is no reason you can't use wooden wasters for freeplay. I'd really be careful with the thrusting stuff especially. Wear a fencing mask and gloves until you're very confident that you aren't going to brain the other guy or poke his eye out. You're going to get a few bumps and bruises, but that just goes with the territory.

I'm experimenting with other options for padded sword materials and designs. I'm not even considering performance in the bind since the foam affects performance so much.

Check out the thread on the plastic/nylon wasters for another option.
http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22363
I'm not sure if they will take the place of padded sparring swords, but they are great for at least freeplay, and they slide!

[Dylan Reaves]

Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for the helpful response. I looked at the wasters, and I like them, but full-speed combat is something we're fairly interested right now, and we don't have any kind of body armor, so we're going with padded for now. In that case, if the padded changes it that much, what was the difference between the OLD regular sword and the OLD renaissance cut-and-slash weapon? Maybe therein lies the difference I'm looking for...perhaps elongating that newer sword design and making it slightly thinner would match the long/fast aspect of what I want?

[Will Adamson]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. When you say "OLD sword" are you talking about the longsword? Single hand swords for sword and shield or sword and buckler are older. When you say "OLD renaissance cut & slash sword" do you mean cut & thrust? Or are you refering to the old ARMA padded sword design. There is an ARMA design for a padded cut & thrust, but I've never seen one. I'm not to the point of exploring cut & thrust techniques.

If you are doing your thrusting from the bind with padded weapons, the foam is going to be what causes a difference in performance from real swords. You can still do it for fun in beating on your friends, but beware of making any interpretational conclusions with the paddeds in this arena.

[Allen Johnson]

another problem being that if you just use padded swords you really are not getting a good picture of what using these weapons is like. Padded sparring is just a small facet of what we do to try and create a feel for what went on. There is no way you are going to get the feel for the differences between a medieval single hand sword and a renaissance cut & thrust using padded weapons. Only by working with wasters, blunts and sharps is that picture begining to take shape. The balance, blade shape and weight distribution (thus the techniques) and very different between the two weapons. (Though some principals are nearly identical). Point being, that by just using padded weapons, you really arent getting as good weapon specific training as with other weapon simulators.

[Dylan Reaves]

I meant the models labeled "OLD" on the website, saying cut and slash was my mistake, sorry. Ok, so, taking into account that the wasters give a much more realistic feel, we're now wondering if theres a simple way to armor ourselves so that we can practice full speed with wasters. No, we're not afraid of bruises, just no SEVERE pain/broken bones. Hurting is OK, and we want to stay fairly light and manouverable. By the way, originally, I just meant how can I make a faster lighter version of the sword listed on this site at the moment in dark blue heading?

[Greg Coffman]

I reccomend emphasizing learning the movements and building control over going full speed to start with. For protection, a fencing mask (or some other head protection) is a must even with padded wasters. Glove are also important. Many people like lacrosse gloves. I would also reccomend shin guards and a cup.

[Will Adamson]

Armoring up to the point where you aren't going to be seriously hurt by wooden wasters at full contact is going to alter how you move. In essence you are going to have to armor up for harnisfecten (sp?) but score hits like for blossfecten (unarmored). Harnisfecten is a different manner of fighting than blossfecten. Armored fighting is characterized by halfswording, more thrusting, and more ringen am swert (wrestling at the sword).

As was said earlier, padded sparring is just another, albeit very important, facet of learning historical fencing.

[Shane Smith]

Armoring up to the point where you aren't going to be seriously hurt by wooden wasters at full contact is going to alter how you move. In essence you are going to have to armor up for harnisfecten (sp?) but score hits like for blossfecten (unarmored). Harnisfecten is a different manner of fighting than blossfecten. Armored fighting is characterized by halfswording, more thrusting, and more ringen am swert (wrestling at the sword).

As was said earlier, padded sparring is just another, albeit very important, facet of learning historical fencing.

Agreed. No man in harness is going to move properly for blossfechten nor is a man out of armour going to move properly in harnessfechten. Either is inherrently false and somewhat counter-productive.

This is what armoured fighting should look like;

[Will Adamson]

Just curious, how do you guys thrust doing that? Do you pull it a bit, go for it, or just know when the other guy has you dead to rites? I'm sure the swords are blunted to the point that there is no way they would penetrate, but even without armor penetration you can still cause serious damage depending on the nature of the armor, location, etc., etc.

Are y'all gonna do this in August for us? Please!

[Dylan Reaves]

Thanks for all the responses! Ok, so:
1) Padded sword fighting is just one of many ways to do it, though its good practice.
2) You suggest we practice with non-padded and do drills, etc., before fighting with padded.
3) Padded sparring isn't as realistic as wasters.
4)Armored is different style of fighting entirely.
I think that's everything I've been told so far. Ok, so one more question, the one I technically started this whole thread with: I want to make a thinner faster padded sword, is that at all possible? OLD Renaissance Cut & Thrust Style Swords looked appealing, but it's labeled OLD and says the design is no longer used. Padded Contact Weapon Design seems like your basic sword, but isn't suited to being quick and such. Or should I just not care and fight however I want with that one?

[Allen Johnson]

remember also that by making a weapon lighter and faster, you are changing the essnce of that weapon. The techniques used are created in a way to match our bodies capacity for movement and maximum efficency in its use. If you change a weapons attributes, it ceases to be that weapon. A rapier is not a modern epee- despite many who claim its similarity. Why? Because its attributes in no way resemble the historical weapon. A modern sport fencing saber in no way resembles any historical military sabers (at least ones that were used in serious intent). Why? The attributes of the weapon no not resemble each other. So while you may build a lighter and faster cut and thrust sword, you really are not training in cut & thrust. Why? The sword you created does not have the same attributes as the one in which the martial art was originally created for.

[Will Adamson]

I think what you are getting at are the issues that I am having with paddeds as well. The problems that arise are that you need to do one of two things to make the padded weapon narrower or thinner (by narrower I mean the edge to edge width which is what I see as the biggest drawback, and thinner refering to the edge thickness.) One is to decrease the amount of padding. I don't think I have to tell you what effect this will have. The other is to decrease the size of the core. This is the best possibility, but finding a core any thinner that will either not bend or break while still being the proper stiffness and forgiving enough to not injure unduly is problematic at best.

Many folks toy around with these designs from time to time, so maybe something will be discovered soon. In the meantime, study manuals, run drills, spar with what you have, experiment with techniques, and experiment with sparring weapon designs. This entire endeavour is an exploration, not a pontification.

[Shane Smith]

It really is problematic to find thinner cores. Here is what happens when you use a core that while thin, lacks the required structural integrity;



That is me setting aside Matt's diagonal cut with a vertical-ish counter cut in freeplay. You can almost guarantee your cores suck when you start taking incidental hand cuts way more often than is the norm. Those whippy blades just flex right around good covers and hit your arms and hands anyway.

Oh, and we will be showing you guys all the cool and high-impact armoured stuff at the International Event.