Group Free-play

[Jon Wolfe]

The techniques that we study, in addition to their self-defence applications, were also, and are more often than not, intended for use on the battlefield. However, all of the footage online that I have seen is of two and only two combatants. Has anyone experimented sparring in groups of more than two? Like 1 on 2, 2 on 2, 2 on 3, etc. I would imagine that the dynamic of the bout would certainly change having to worry about more than one opponent. I woundn't think that I would be the first to think of this, but has anyone tried it?

[JeremyDillon]

The techniques that we study, in addition to their self-defence applications, were also, and are more often than not, intended for use on the battlefield. However, all of the footage online that I have seen is of two and only two combatants. Has anyone experimented sparring in groups of more than two? Like 1 on 2, 2 on 2, 2 on 3, etc. I would imagine that the dynamic of the bout would certainly change having to worry about more than one opponent. I woundn't think that I would be the first to think of this, but has anyone tried it?

Actually, a vast majority of techniques presented in the period manuals are shown as applied to single combat. Several masters (Talhoffer, for example) do include a couple of panels on fighting multiple opponents, but not many. However, I know many groups (including my own) employ such multi-combatant sparring, and ARMA I believe even advocates it.
http://thearma.org/essays/Tactical.htm
This is an interesting article related to the subject, and to tactical training as a whole. It should interest you.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Well, the problem is that it's often difficult to get a large number of practitioners together at a specific place and time.

On my side, me and my group of amateurs haven't had much experience with group sparring since we can't even be guaranteed to get the individual techniques right. But I guess I'm allowed to digress and say something about the weird old days when I got drafted into a community watch program, which included riot squad training with batons and rattan shields--and part of the training involved building our aggressiveness by lining the people up in two opposing formations of around forty men each and having us charge against each other. At first we were a bit shy, and ended up stopping just within baton's reach and poking at each other while hiding behind our shields. But it was a session meant for building aggressiveness after all, and by the end of it the instructors succeeded in having us line four deep and really charge into a shield-to-shield shoving match. One hell of a shoving match, that was. The collective shield push became our primary weapon and we used our batons only as weapons of opportunity--taking potshots at exposed heads and shoulders. We had little room for technique (of which we were only taught a few anyway). Victory was just a matter of who had the more solid formation, better morale, and pushed harder.

Definitely some different mechanics from one-on-one or even few-on-few!

That was before I got involved in WMA. If any of us had known the German masters back then, maybe he would have urged the rest of us into the shove in the first place--before our opponents were ready for it.

[Matthew_Anderson]

We've done it a few times at larger events. It's a blast and very enlightening. IMO, the techniques for using a weapon are similar, but the tactics are different in group combat.

[Benjamin Smith]

We used to to it a lot in ARMA Provo, at least once a month. In ARMA Pullman we spend time regularly on asymetric and group combat when we have the people. I think the focus on one on one training is mainly because that is where you learn the techniques that you can apply in other situations. Although formation combat is something we haven't been able to do because you need large groups of people to do formation combat.

[Jon Wolfe]

Oh ya, formation drills are out of the picture, but for only the largest of study groups. The manuals are taught 1 on 1 because thats where everyone starts, I would think. I've never heard of anyone learning or teaching from the standpoint of facing multiple opponents, right out of the gate. Everyone has to have a basic level of instruction, before moving on to more complex concepts. It would be the next step in instruction, to engage in drills involving multiple antagonists. The tactical training would definately be beneficial, I'll have to bring it up with my group. My main question though is how are techniques taught for single combat applied to a group oriented scenario, and what is lost in transition. I think my question was answered well enough by the article, until I run into something else to question.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Oh. By the way, maybe you'd also like to check this ARMA article on Sir Kenelm Digby. It has quite an exciting account of group combat by somebody who acually participated in it as a matter of life or death.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/digby.html

[Seth Halsell]

Our numbers at the oc group in California have grown large enough to where we have been able to do some group sparring. We have tried 1 on 1, 2 on 1, 2 on 2, and even 3 on 1. It has been a lot of fun to do and have found out that it is very challenging for the one person facing 2 opponents and even more so when it is 3 on 1. I would not say its impossible to beat 3 two or three opponents facing you but it is definatly challening. A few things we have observed is that the person or group that is out numbered must make sure they keep the other members of the group with in their field of vision. You can not let others get around you. Once they start to get around you its pretty much over. Because the group with more numbers are usually trying to get around the out numbered group there tends to be a lot more running invovled. In sparring you must have the initiative but that concept is multiplied perhaps even 2 fold however when you are outnumbered. If you lose the initiative and are not aggressive when you are outnumbered you will probably not last long as we have discovered.

[John_Clements]

We use to do it all the time in Houston, Study Group. I advocate this kind of skirmishing whenever any numbers of 10 or 12 and more get together.

[Jon Wolfe]

That's truly good to hear. But we only had three people, myself included, turn-out in yesterday. It might be quite a while before we even get 5 people to attend training sessions on any kind of regular basis though.

[Stacy Clifford]

We still do it pretty regularly in Houston when we have sparring night at the end of an 8-week session. We usually have 10-12 people and mix it up with battles between two teams same size or different, seniors vs. newbies, 4-6 smaller teams in each corner, and every man for himself free-for-all. Generally speaking it boils down to a lot more running, less technique, and lots of tactics. Loads of fun and very tiring. We've got a few pictures of group battle here:

http://www.armanorthhouston.org/classactivities.htm