ReMA vs. MMA

[Justin Lompado]

Dave Nathan wrote:

I'd like to see someone try to stab me while they're stuck in my triangle choke as I control both of their arms. Would they grab their knife and stab me with only the use of their toes? Haha, I hope not!

I have to chime in a little bit here

You can control both of their arms, but this isn't necessarily the case. Even if that hand can only hit your leg, if it's got a knife and is stabbing/cutting you the triangle will not be able to be kept.

Also, I would not have so much faith in the triangle itself. I do not know if you watch the UFC, but there was a fight wherein one man (Matt Hughes) was stuck ing the triangle. He lifted the other man (Carlos Newton) and slammed him down, knocking him out. This is not as difficult as it sounds. In a dangerous situation, with adrenaline pumping, lifiting another man (assuming he isn't like over 300 pounds) isn't that difficult. I've done this same thing, lifting the person up in the air when they got me in a triangle, and that was in friendly rolling without any danger. If you get slammed down and are in the holding position midair, you will likley lose your hold when you hit the ground. I wish more people would try this instead of trying to simply pull out; which is extremley difficult. Basically, you have to grab your opponent's body somehow (or hands) and lift. I bet a lot of the big guys in ARMA could do this to some of their sparring partners, and as long as you are strong, (being big isn't required for that) you should be able to do this to someone around your size, and certainly to smeone smaller. This move is also useful (and easier) if you are stuck in someone's guard.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I can't speak for the triangle choke (Iknow what it is, but not much more than that). But I would suggest that grappling without knives and with them are quite different worlds with different dynamics.

[Randall Pleasant]

Let us also not overlook other dynamics when teeth and nails are added as weapons to grappling.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Let us also not overlook other dynamics when teeth and nails are added as weapons to grappling.

That is also a factor. But we need to consider under what rules we safely spar with intent. You can safely grapple both unarmed and with knife simulators to develop that skill, just as you do with S&B or longsword freeplay. I don't see how you can incorporate biting into that and still go home without severe injuries after class (beyond just the usual bruises).

I would suggest to those out there who practice the ringen dimension of this art to also grapple when one or both people have a rondel. It changes things a bit and needs its own training time.

[Stewart Sackett]

I would suggest to those out there who practice the ringen dimension of this art to also grapple when one or both people have a rondel. It changes things a bit and needs its own training time.

I would go further than that. It seems to me that in a culture such as that of Europe in the early Renaissance, one in which it was common practice for all men to carry daggers or knives, there would be certain healthy biases within the martial arts.

It has often been remarked that unarmed Ringen striking, in many instances, resembles blows with a dagger. It is my opinion that, in order to understand renaissance striking, it is beneficial to start with dagger play & let that inform your unarmed strikes. I would also recommend dagger play as a basis for Ringen training because it teaches an emphasis on control of the dominant arm something that is useful both when an enemy has a dagger drawn & when a dagger has not yet come into play.

Those are 2 elements that (from my slight study of the fightbooks) seem to lend Ringen a distinct flavor, different from both modern wrestling styles & MMA.

[Max Lancaster]

I dont know if I could get into RMA. I am taking my 2nd level test for Krav Maga and Also came from a Systema and Boxing back ground. I am a 10 year vet also of Kali/Escrima and have been known to knock around a good amount of heads in my area. I would be hard pressed to change my format for RMA.

[LynGrey]

I dont know if I could get into RMA. I am taking my 2nd level test for Krav Maga and Also came from a Systema and Boxing back ground. I am a 10 year vet also of Kali/Escrima and have been known to knock around a good amount of heads in my area. I would be hard pressed to change my format for RMA.

I hope you have some serious conditioning and cardio... that 2nd level test can be a beast =)

[Max Lancaster]

Yes...I do..I am in excellent condition. The first test was a week long and was something crazy like 8 hours a day..But I did my time =)
Now just onto the second.

[Corey Roberts]

If and when somebody ends up trained enough that they think they are ready to try out ringen against MMA, I think that would be absolutley awesome. That would definetly put a little more light on us in the public view for sure. Especially if ARMA did well

[david welch]

If and when somebody ends up trained enough that they think they are ready to try out ringen against MMA, I think that would be absolutley awesome. That would definetly put a little more light on us in the public view for sure. Especially if ARMA did well

The truth to the matter is, it doesn't matter how good you get at Ringen. Once you put it under the same rule constraints as the other MMA fighters, what you will do will look exactly like what they are doing.

[Jay Vail]

If and when somebody ends up trained enough that they think they are ready to try out ringen against MMA, I think that would be absolutley awesome. That would definetly put a little more light on us in the public view for sure. Especially if ARMA did well

The wrestling techniques (by this I mean the locks and takedowns/throws) you tend to see in MMA are rather limited in number. As it happens, most of them are already in ringen. If you trained in ringen and actively sought to apply it in the octagon, you would display more technical variation that you ordinarily see from most MMA fighters.

[Max Lancaster]

My take on MMA is that its Smoke and Mirrors..There was no weight classes in UFC for awhile and fighting styles like Tai Kick Boxing/Kick Boxing, Kung Fu and other exotic arts were getting the crap beat out of them..Why? Cause those styles could not use things to get them out of Locks and chokes.Everything they knew that could help them was illegal. The fighting system I have been taking for over 2 years was banned from the UFC the first year because of the maiming. UFC and most cage fighting is not fighting..Its a sport that has to many rules..Rules that ppl on the street wont follow.

Jujutsu is something that does not interest me( if anyone practices this, I hope you incorperate the situation of the street and not the situation of the ring)

I see these locks and the style that I take to counter these locks is to bite down on their jucie arm and rip a chunk out of it..You wont belive how fast someone will let go of you when you tear a mouth sized bite out of there arm and how quick that lock will let go.

Another great lock breaker that the UFC banned is another great Krav maga and other systems of fighting answer to being grappled..Taking your finger and sticking it into the eye ball of the grappler OR grabbing fingers and breaking them.

These are all REAL fighting moves to get you out of being choked out..But you cant use them in UFC or any of that other TV show case fighting.

I don't belive in Cage fighting..Its two men..With plenty of room..Time to rest...Plenty of rules...And 1 on 1..That's not how it goes down in real life..

There are no rules..There are friends..And someone has a knife..Some one grabs me for jujutsu..To choke me out..I am going to bite a massive rip out of there arm..Or start breaking fingers and I am sorry to say..That if someone tried to put me in a lock on the street..I am going to pull a knife..It's attempted murder to do that to someone on the street..They are no Doctors and no Ref to stop them from cutting off blood and oxyen to your brain..You can die that way and the law tells me that I have the right to defend myself according to the situation..So if someone does that..Then I have the right to pull and knife and give him a C-section.

You cant do anything usful in the MMA..You cant bite, Maim, Stomp, Gouge, Groin strike, Small digit manipulation, Throat strike and the list goes on and on..And it sure as hell does not prepare you for the other guy having a knife...

I don't care what kinds haga you know or think you know or how many black belts you think you have..Someone pulls a knife..They become bruce lee and the style I takes answer to a knife..Is to run your ass off.


But on a note..These are the styles I practice..All very hard and brutal styles that I love to death...Styles that you can and will never see in a UFC or MMA ring because it requires Maiming and Illegal form.

Krav Maga, Systema , Escrima, Arma and I was also in The Military(Ex 10th mountain) over seas.

This does not make me belive I am a master assassin or the worlds greatest fighter but it gives a person a better understanding of the situation around him and offeres me more choices to make when the situation goes down.

Most fighting systems no matter what they are , are going to require you to be in good shape and to be strong..

I lift weight and work out alot..And I can say when I spar my friend Paul who knows Wing Chun and Akidio..He can't usually do anything to me..I usually shove him aside

Str. is not everything..But it leaves you with a large room for error..

Even bruce lee lifted weight and said that weights and str. are a essential part of any Fighting systems..

But I belive I rambled on enough. I hope I am on track here and thinking the MMA that everyone is talking about is the Cage fighting.

I am just not a fan of RULES enforced fighting. There are no rules when you are attacked or attacking someone.

[Stewart Sackett]

That’s just really silly.

It’s true that MMA is not the same as a street fight. It’s true that you cannot eye-gouge in MMA, but let me ask you: how many people have you maimed in training. My guess is not very many because if you go around blinding people you tend to run out of training partners pretty quickly.

Those techniques which are banned in MMA are, with a few exceptions, the techniques which cannot be safely trained with intensity & against true resistance. Now, it’s my opinion that techniques that haven’t been trained against resistance are unlikely to function when a person is under stress but that’s really beside the point. The inclusion in MMA of any technique that has the primary effect of maiming an opponent would make it impossible for fighters to have lasting careers in the sport & MMA is a sport.

So, rather than expect MMA to be a duel to the death (& criticize it when it fails to meet that expectation) why not look at it for what it is: a combat sport which allows 2 highly skilled combatants to test themselves against one another in a controlled setting. What’s wrong with that?

As for your specific criticisms of jiujutsu & MMA: biting, eye gouging, throat & groin strikes, small digit manipulation, multiple opponents & knives (I left out maiming as it’s non-specific & stomping because it was allowed in the Pride competitions);I don’t find them very creditable.

I’ll start by admitting that groin strikes do change things. I have no argument there. As for throat strikes, that seems a very unlikely attack against any trained fighter as both boxers & submission wrestlers are taught to keep their chins tucked.

I’ve never seen anyone fighting from a dominant position attack the small joints as a primary target since blows, arm breaks & chokes are surer ways to incapacitate an opponent. I have seen people in bad positions who where getting dominated, getting hurt & above all had no real grappling skill (or at least no hope of escaping from their situation with what grappling skill they possessed) try to grab & break fingers & toes either as an attack or as a defense against large joint manipulation & chokes. I’ve never seen it work; usually the guy on top simply hits their opponent in the head until the fingers are released.

With biting: I can see this being effective against a choke hold but in the case of most large joint manipulation it would seem the most effective way to escape a bite would be to continue with the movement of the lock & simply break the joint. Of course this also gets into the fundamental difference between a sporting competition & a fight for survival because if a person feels that they are fighting for their life they (or at least I) would simply break a joint in a single movement rather than slowly applying a lock & waiting for the attacker to submit. Such decisive breaking (in contrast to statically holding a lock, as is common in both training & sport) offers little opportunity to bring the teeth to bear.

Eye gouging is another thing that could be quite effective but ultimately fails as an argument for the same essential reason that all the other attacks you mentioned fail to be a convincing criticism of MMA. The reason is this: if someone used “foul tactics” against an experienced MMA fighter that fighter could easily chose to respond in kind & having (almost certainly) superior athleticism due to their training & a superior foundation of skill in stand-up, clinch & ground; the MMA fighter would be better able to apply those techniques than the one who advocates them.

As for multiple opponents…well, if you can’t beat 1 person what are the odds you can beat 2.

As for your suggestion that you’d stab someone who tried to choke you, well…I have to say I think it’s interesting that you imagine yourself (armed) as the victim while the unarmed grappler is the aggressor. In my experience criminals tend to be armed, street fights tend to be mutual & people who habitually carry weapons do so less out of concern for self-protection & more out of a desire for an opportunity to use those weapons against others.

[JeffGentry]

My take on MMA is that its Smoke and Mirrors..There was no weight classes in UFC for awhile and fighting styles like Tai Kick Boxing/Kick Boxing, Kung Fu and other exotic arts were getting the crap beat out of them..Why? Cause those styles could not use things to get them out of Locks and chokes.Everything they knew that could help them was illegal. The fighting system I have been taking for over 2 years was banned from the UFC the first year because of the maiming. UFC and most cage fighting is not fighting..Its a sport that has to many rules..Rules that ppl on the street wont follow.

Jujutsu is something that does not interest me( if anyone practices this, I hope you incorperate the situation of the street and not the situation of the ring)

I see these locks and the style that I take to counter these locks is to bite down on their jucie arm and rip a chunk out of it..You wont belive how fast someone will let go of you when you tear a mouth sized bite out of there arm and how quick that lock will let go.

Another great lock breaker that the UFC banned is another great Krav maga and other systems of fighting answer to being grappled..Taking your finger and sticking it into the eye ball of the grappler OR grabbing fingers and breaking them.

These are all REAL fighting moves to get you out of being choked out..But you cant use them in UFC or any of that other TV show case fighting.

I don't belive in Cage fighting..Its two men..With plenty of room..Time to rest...Plenty of rules...And 1 on 1..That's not how it goes down in real life..

There are no rules..There are friends..And someone has a knife..Some one grabs me for jujutsu..To choke me out..I am going to bite a massive rip out of there arm..Or start breaking fingers and I am sorry to say..That if someone tried to put me in a lock on the street..I am going to pull a knife..It's attempted murder to do that to someone on the street..They are no Doctors and no Ref to stop them from cutting off blood and oxyen to your brain..You can die that way and the law tells me that I have the right to defend myself according to the situation..So if someone does that..Then I have the right to pull and knife and give him a C-section.

You cant do anything usful in the MMA..You cant bite, Maim, Stomp, Gouge, Groin strike, Small digit manipulation, Throat strike and the list goes on and on..And it sure as hell does not prepare you for the other guy having a knife...

I don't care what kinds haga you know or think you know or how many black belts you think you have..Someone pulls a knife..They become bruce lee and the style I takes answer to a knife..Is to run your ass off.


But on a note..These are the styles I practice..All very hard and brutal styles that I love to death...Styles that you can and will never see in a UFC or MMA ring because it requires Maiming and Illegal form.

Krav Maga, Systema , Escrima, Arma and I was also in The Military(Ex 10th mountain) over seas.

This does not make me belive I am a master assassin or the worlds greatest fighter but it gives a person a better understanding of the situation around him and offeres me more choices to make when the situation goes down.

Most fighting systems no matter what they are , are going to require you to be in good shape and to be strong..

I lift weight and work out alot..And I can say when I spar my friend Paul who knows Wing Chun and Akidio..He can't usually do anything to me..I usually shove him aside

Str. is not everything..But it leaves you with a large room for error..

Even bruce lee lifted weight and said that weights and str. are a essential part of any Fighting systems..

But I belive I rambled on enough. I hope I am on track here and thinking the MMA that everyone is talking about is the Cage fighting.

I am just not a fan of RULES enforced fighting. There are no rules when you are attacked or attacking someone.

Max

This is a ridiculous argument.

Most submission's in MMA can very quickly become break's it all depend's on your intent, I do not realy like the cage fighting because alot of guy's train to pin there opponent against the cage to help limit there opponent's movement it will also limit there movement.

As for Kung fu and such not being able to use there best technique's to escape from submission's I doubt it would have helped, in the early day's of the UFC(UFC 1, 2,3) there were very few rule's no biting, no kick's to the groin, no small joint manipulation(3 finger's or more) were about all the rule's they had, It made no diffrence even the so called Ninja's got a butt whoopin, Now they have more rule's something like 30 and they had to do that in order to keep from getting shutdown and become a main stream sport.

As for Jiu jitsu it is not the end all be all, The Gracie's have been using it in "NHB" for many year's and it has become strictly for fighting no fluff or BS mysticism just get in the gym, roll and sweat, I think the protocol of the tap is a very good training tool so we do not hurt or training partner's and limit our own training, I know I do not want somebody dropping an armbar on me and bursting the bursa in my elbow, or choking me to unconciousness, if I slap a RNC on some one and they try to take a bite of my arm I am going to elbow the living crap out of the back of there head which is not allowed in the UFC because it can do some real damage to a person's neck.

If someone grab's you to slap an arm bar on you on the street i think you might want to protect your arm and attempt to protect that arm, before they snap your arm because if they drop it on hard and fast that is what will happen, it will break your arm, part of fighting in the cage(UFC)or ring(Pride) is being able to control your opponent and if you can't do it in a sport then you most likely can't do it on the street with someone who is intent on actualy hurting not just submitting you.

I do agree if someone pull's a knife on me I am running like the wind, screw the martial art's, I will rely on my Nike fu.

there is no one ultimate martial art, they all have there good and bad, sparring is one of the thing's that will allow you to learn what is effective and what is not, and how to employ what is effective against a resisting opponent, If you can not do it against a resisting opponent it is garbage and that is what MMA has brought to light, I know for a fact Chuck Liddel at one time studied Kenpo, Kempo, how ever it is spelled, Karate and I have not seen him use that in any fight.

I alway's say the rule's make the game and the rule's of MMA make it what it is, There are good thing's we can learn from MMA, if a wing chun guy wanted to start sparring with me in order to learn how to realy use his wing chun what the heck why not I'm in, because it would enlighten me as to how to deal with wing chun, So I would learn something myself and as long as it was friendly sparring ie no ego crap then why not, We would both be better off.

Just my 2 cent's worth.

Jeff

[Max Lancaster]

I don't see how you think that a eye-gouge will not have a grappler release a lock on you..How are you disproving my point? When someone takes a finger and rams it into your eye and you lose something..Your going to let go..

Second..I would not expect someone to only apply small digit when the lock is applied..I would expect them to apply to before it was applied making someone's hand usless and taking away the option for them to grapple you or have you just not ever seen the reaction of someone when their fingers have been broken?

I have and it happend to me..And I can honestly say that I could not continue with a lock. Let alone strike someone with a hand.

"Striking someone in the face till the fingers are let go"

From my knowlege it does not take that long to snap a finger..If its taking you that long to snap it..Your doing something wrong. ( Not saying I go around and snap fingers nor apply it to ppl I train with but it does not take a rocket scientist to know how to break a finger)

Or biting a chunk out. It's not going to give you that long to elbow them..I know very few humans that can take a mouth sized ripp and contine with elbows..If you can do that then you are super human.

MMA as a sport..I was undert the asumption that some folk's were praising MMA as the end all be all of the fighting world and it's not..That's what I was trying to get across.

As for your suggestion that you’d stab someone who tried to choke you, well…I have to say I think it’s interesting that you imagine yourself (armed) as the victim while the unarmed grappler is the aggressor. In my experience criminals tend to be armed, street fights tend to be mutual & people who habitually carry weapons do so less out of concern for self-protection & more out of a desire for an opportunity to use those weapons against others.

I have never pulled a knife out for just any reason..Excpet one that saved my life..And I was glad I had a knife on me.

And yes..In my state. A person that applies a choke on you it is attempted murder. Hence the reason I say..The person is not a Doctor and there is nor Ref to break it up..So I have the right to get myself out of the situation.

And in my experiance Victims tend to be unarmed..I am not saying everyone should pull a knife..But I am glad I have one..

Eye gouging is another thing that could be quite effective but ultimately fails as an argument for the same essential reason that all the other attacks you mentioned fail to be a convincing criticism of MMA. The reason is this: if someone used “foul tactics” against an experienced MMA fighter that fighter could easily chose to respond in kind & having (almost certainly) superior athleticism due to their training & a superior foundation of skill in stand-up, clinch & ground; the MMA fighter would be better able to apply those techniques than the one who advocates them

You have never seen me..Nor know me..I can assure you I can apply those to a MMA fighter and in a popsition for a lock or grapple a MMA fighter is not in the position to apply those moves besides a few to the one on his back. The reason small digit was banned..Fighter went to the ground , the other tried to lock and his finger was yanked and he let go and could not finish the fight. Half the ppl we train for MMA at the shark tank never want to spar with out most of the rules.

Why?

We fight different..I have Trained with Torajah Mansuri( part of the Millinium Jujitsu crew and still a close friend) who wrote a grappling book with Gene LeBell( and has fought in the king of the cage) we went at it with normal rules mma and he beat me..Then he allowed me to do other manovers and I beat him..

I just don't see MMA as the end all be all and I welcome anyone in the Cali area or will be in the Cali area to come and free spar with me at the Shark Tank for Free..Its a good way to cross train.

As I said again..I thought this was a praise to MMA and the cage..Oh ya..The so called Ninja..First..If he was really a ninja..He would have remembered that Ninjutsu is not for a front to front conflict and for ambusing your enemy..So his mistake one..And Chuck Lidell lost to a mean right hook last saturday

But back to the ninja..I don't know what made him belive that his art was ment for up front...

But everyone see things a different way...

p.s I just wanted everyone to know that I was able to find the R2D2 star wars ringer on my phone..There is something grand about hearing that go off when you get a call or text.