The ARMA and everyone else.

[Michael Eging]

Johannes:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

As for the title provost - in medieval times, it would have been conferred in the university setting by a group of distinguished scholars, or even a bishop when in the setting of a religious organization. In a military or government setting, such as a prison or a military structure... well, a commanding officer of sufficient rank. Not sure it would have been linked to a "master" or a maestro to be conferred. With that in mind, it does bring to ARMA the scholarly linkage and that is what is so appealing to me. Also, as in defense of a thesis, scholars review and designate based on criteria. Again, a scholarly and appropriate pathway.

As for the math/science analogy, that is a critical line to draw, IMHO. I am a historian by training and I look at the recreation of WMA from that context. I can't make the same connections as in an applied science for the reasons I have outlined. The links just don't exists. So in math, we can recreate and test equations, but we can't do this in the exact manner for medieval and renaissance martial arts. Texts do not give use all the information, we have no masters to sit with and interview as a primary resource, etc. etc. etc. So, we have interpretations, testing, and refining based on our evolving understanding. But our understanding cannot stand in for the likes of Fiore, Meier, etc.

Thanks again for the exchange. I have appreciated it.

All the best,
Mike

[Jay Vail]

Mr. Vail:

Jay Vail wrote:

Sam, people here react strongly to the title "master" because no one, nowhere, no how is entitled to it, regardless of their martial art. [...snip... ]A guy I study with (or more accurately under) deserves to be called "master" more than anyone I've encountered for his superlative skill, his fighting history and civility, but he is as modest as they come and calls himself just a teacher.

Mr. Vail, if you wish to restrict the application of the term "master" to exponents of such superlative skill that they are not to be found in any martial art, anywhere in the world, then by all means do so. I will happily grant that there are no "masters" in your sense. What I have tried to explain is that there is a perfectly acceptable use of the terms "master" (or "maestro" in Spanish and Italian) in which it simply means just that, teacher. You may not like it, but please do not assume that when others use the term they are automatically claiming to be demigods.

Johannes, in an ideal world, perhaps "master" could simply mean teacher. Unfortunately, every so called "master" I have ever met (with that one exception) was a fake. They often did not even have the qualifications to be a simple teacher. Moreover, the term "master" is generally used to impress the unwary and to imply a level of skill above and beyond the ordinary. However, these so called "masters" did not possess more than mediocre skills and some of them flat made things up. The Asian martial arts world is full of guys with green belts who promoted themselves to 12th dan and founded their own styles. No less is true of WMA. Master pollution is something that we are trying to guard against for the credibility of our art.

[Will Adamson]

With all the talk of "master" this and "maestro" that, I just thought I'd share this little tidbit from someone who I really have to call a master. Yes, I know this is not WMA, and it is that most made fun of endeavours called taekwondo. But I had dealings with this man for five years as the student of one of his students. He was not a person who had to talk about "what being a master was all about." He just plain out lived it.

Say what you will about the showy aspects of his test, his website, TKD in general. I whole heartedly agree with you. But this man is more than that shiny fascade. Yes, he has done much stunt work, but he is still the genuine article.

For all those who profess the master title (in whatever aspect and art it is meant), this is who you have to live up to in the modern age.

http://www.leebrotherskick.com/Webnews/ ... 202007.jpg

[Alexander Pierre]

For what it's worth, I second Mr. Nankivell.

There is no need for harsh talk, explanations have been provided concerning the use of the Master/Maestro title in the given context.

Regards,
Alexander Pierre

Alex, there is no excuse, period, for using the title "master."

Jay,

In France lawyers are called masters, craftsmen who did their "grand tour" are called masters, you're a master with a Master degree,...the rest has already been discussed here (ie the definition and use of the term and the problem of the competent body who regognises that one as mastered something).

Regards,
Alexander

[Aaron Pynenberg]

All those Professions Alexander, have established curricula and standards which are either similar or exacting....which is where we are having a problem in this regard.

As a SWAT Officer I have had to pass exams, physical and mental, meet certain established standards and regularly display my comprehension of established skill sets.

These rules were not something I established and then used to call myself a SWAT Officer, they were set up by a seperate entity. What value would such a program have, when the rules and standards used were set by only the people claiming the title.

These fellows, do not have a monopoly on common sense, people. Tell us what your curricula is, or what sets of standards you have had to meet to claim such titles and we will understand. ARMA's approach and structure is displayed for all to see, it's listed in black and white and easily demonstrable. That's why we are so quick to jump on this kind of stuff, WMA practictioners will only put up with this sort of thing for so long.

This is not an "attack" on anyone but the core reasons why this subject has faltered for so long. Actual physical and achedemic scholarship is hard to fake, but we all have to admitt there are folks out there who will take the easy route-in any subject.

[Jay Vail]

For what it's worth, I second Mr. Nankivell.

There is no need for harsh talk, explanations have been provided concerning the use of the Master/Maestro title in the given context.

Regards,
Alexander Pierre

Alex, there is no excuse, period, for using the title "master."

Jay,

In France lawyers are called masters, craftsmen who did their "grand tour" are called masters, you're a master with a Master degree,...the rest has already been discussed here (ie the definition and use of the term and the problem of the competent body who regognises that one as mastered something).

Regards,
Alexander

Alexander, I'm a lawyer. So that entitles me to the title of master? BTW, in the US a lawyer is a JD, juris doctor. This entitles me to be called Dr. as well? Either title is presumptuous and arrogant. You may call such people "masters" in your country, but we don't call them that here. We call self proclaimed "masters" "jerks."

[Alexander Pierre]

Aaron,

I do not know the maestros in person, so I cannot judge their abilities from my own point of view...

I agree at 142% on the issue of clarity of promotion to master status, though I do not on the use of this term (which causes problems to some people).

As for the self proclamed masters issue...you can either say that one has to start somewhere to build a system/society/whatever and assume that the initial master(s) had sufficient knowlegde in their own field of expertise allowing themselves to be called as such (ie being sufficiently advanced to be able to instruct others at all levels) and allowing them to recognise others as masters (but how? => problem here) or consider the skills irrelevent (which leads to a crappy system we shouldn't even waste time on).

I understand the issues of this thread and really think it's not worth talking about it further...maybe the moderators can close this topic...

Anyway, have a good night...or day at this time across the pond .

Regards,
Alexander

[Alexander Pierre]

Alexander, I'm a lawyer. So that entitles me to the title of master? BTW, in the US a lawyer is a JD, juris doctor. This entitles me to be called Dr. as well? Either title is presumptuous and arrogant. You may call such people "masters" in your country, but we don't call them that here. We call self proclaimed "masters" "jerks."

I shall tell my lawyer friends that americans think they're "jerks" then, I'm sure they'll be pleased

[EDIT] I might had to clarify my point of view that Master has an historical sense and use which doesn't reflect the negative meaning that some (or most?) of us put on it. Self proclaimed master do indeed deserve to be called as you called them. (are lawyer self proclaimed?... just teasing)

Alexander

[Will Adamson]

I shall tell my lawyer friends that americans think they're "jerks" then, I'm sure they'll be pleased

Americans pretty much that way about all lawyers. Even the lawyers.

On another note. People who found a particular style are called founders. They may have been granted a master rank in something else before coming up with their new system or whatnot. I'm not really sure if many of them who were not masters in something else used the title. Certainly they eventually deemed some of their students to be masters.

In this context, master would be a rank within a certain system or style. In the arts we are studying there is still much debate about particular styles and systems. No system seems to be sufficiently complete and totally interpreted. I'm not sure if they even can be unless some new groundbreaking discoveries are made. So if using this definition of master, there can't be any...even provost would be a stretch.

Ultimately, we are all students of umpteen different masters spread out over many hundreds of years.

[Alexander Pierre]

Americans pretty much that way about all lawyers. Even the lawyers.

With half of my family in the states, I should have known that...

As for the rest I should have used a different word; by "system" I meant an association or society, eg ARMA, Schola Gladiatoria, Ochs, etc. Sorry about the confusion . I have been raised with both the English and the French languages so my brain gets quite confused sometimes vocabulary-wise .

Ultimately, we are all students of umpteen different masters spread out over many hundreds of years.

Agreed.

Regards,
Alexander

[Gianluca Zanini]

Dear Gentlemen,

I am new on this forum, with John I have had interesting and mutual supports in the field of historical researches, above all regarding Venetian bridge war.
Thanks for editing the English version and hosting my article!
Still remember with pleasure the night training with ARMA NY group.


Regarding living tradition and masters in Italy, who can boast a lineage of living tradition back to the XIX century, is still working in the modern fencing environments.
One of the oldest Maestri of a living tradition from that period, is Maestro Zammarano from Sicily. He learned the Art from his father who studied with Greco school. Maestro Zammarano is quite old and he knows very well French Latin and he may be one of the greatest collector of fencing manuals, beside being a very appreciated author of essays and articles.
Thanks to him our group got some very rare manuals. He is also one of the greatest living memory of "facts" and "names" regarding fencing in the past two centuries. Rumours said he represent the “old school” in Italy.
Beyond this world we have not found clear and honest evidence of living tradition sword masters. If one can proof the contrary I will be glad to compliment with him. Living masters are welcome!

It is not very nice when those who ,claiming their titles, openly disrepute the others by accusing the modern fencing to be a mockery of the art lacking in any practical effectiveness, and the honest research groups, which seek to resurrect an ancient tradition by their own talent, to be fraudulent and fanatic.

We have always suggest to follow the only tradition which can be perpetuated from the medieval era to nowadays, the universal custom when every Master, who claims openly his title, has always been requested to proof on the ground his skill. Today can be done quite safely with some blades.
Although nobody has ever come so far, we are still waiting to meet one who wish to come on the ground in order to show us how a lineage can guarantee some skill older than classical fencing.


Best regards

Gianluca Zanini
Mastro di Scrimia Scuola d'Armi
Istruttore di Sala Nova Scrimia

[Seb Jowett]

I have been absent for a while, due in part to work, vacation and pc problems. Such is the way of things.
However, I find much discussion and much of it personal, refering to people as liars, without just cause, belittling people, savage comments.
All of this is unwarrented and saddening.
Having read this thread, and others, and researched your organisation elsewhere, I hear only troubling things for you. With such saddness I can nolonger post on this sight.
Please cancel my log-on.
I shall not be back for such narrow minded b.s appals me.


Seb Jowett.

[Michael Eging]

I have been absent for a while, due in part to work, vacation and pc problems. Such is the way of things.
However, I find much discussion and much of it personal, refering to people as liars, without just cause, belittling people, savage comments.
All of this is unwarrented and saddening.
Having read this thread, and others, and researched your organisation elsewhere, I hear only troubling things for you. With such saddness I can nolonger post on this sight.
Please cancel my log-on.
I shall not be back for such narrow minded b.s appals me.


Seb Jowett.

Seb:

That is too bad. But debate often brings out passion and at times heated discourse.

However, ARMA is not just what you see in posts, and is also found in countless hours of martial practice, study, etc. In fact, the website is a tool for gaining information to make your practicing more effective.

All the best,
Mike

[Jaron Bernstein]

I have an observation to make here from my own study of military history. The US military (Jake please feel free to chime in! ) has a concept of lessons learned wherein those who have actually recently fought in the field teach those lessons to those who have not in a systematic way. This institutional memory is highly perishable. 5-20 years after those veterens have left service, the skills may be lost to future soldiers. Even if the lesson plan remains on the books and in the field exercises, there is just something lacking in not having done it for real. Then the next war comes along and others have relearn the same lessons, at high cost in blood and treasure.

The arts we study have not been used "for real" in centuries, and changed over time even when they were in use. Fiori was not Capo Ferro or Silver, even if they had some common themes. There were legitimate masters of those arts in their day because they used them in the real world and had that level of skill that comes with what experience. There are what I would consider legitimate "masters" (in equivalent skill levels) of computer programming and basketball today. The best programmers live and breath code and make computers do their magic at levels very few can. This is possible because they exist at the top of a pyramid based in an electronic world. Take away that base and you have the same guys being wizards....with an abacus, not high level programming. The historical fencing world conceptual pyramid has been gone for some time. Another analogy would elite level basketball players today. It takes a vast feeder pool, massive societal support, and regular popular games over several generations to produce a Michael Jordan at the apex of the pyramid. Without that base Michael Jordan not have played ball at that level. He might instead have been in another field, or not have been as good on the court. Right now the historical fencing "base" is rather small. Unless we can replicate the world in which HF thrived (an impossibility) we would be presumptuous to entitle someone a "master" of HF. We may have good HF fighters and scholars now within the context of our time frame, but they would pale in comparison to those masters who were the product of a world where HF had the utility of computers and basketball today.

That is why I think many in ARMA oppose the title "master" as it refers to skill in HF.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Seb, maybe you are just not aware of how bad some of these things are, if that's the case you need to get informed and be part of a larger "corrective" effort.

If not, seeing that you have had 3 posts in the past, I am sure we'll get along - good luck whatever your decision may be!