Question on various armours and weapons

[Nathan Dexter]

In terms of pole arms, the weilder would have no problem parrying any blows because the heads of such are actually very light. Also, the use of a two handed mace or hammer would be very hard to do on horseback, because of the need to have at least one hand on the reins. (many experienced horsemen dont need to do this, but it still helps immensly in a combat situation where you need all the help you can get.

[Jason Taylor]

I know one ARMAteer who accidentally cut one of his own fingers off (since reattached and working fine) with a live katana in the past. The katana, just like a grossemesser, is a cutting wedge in its edge geometry. Just perfect for lobbing off body parts.

In terms of sparring with JSA practicioners, by all means have at it. Just remember the old saw about there being no superior martial arts (although some arts ARE less effective than others) so much as there are superior martial artists.

Oh, yeah. I have no problem believing that, from the ones I've handled. They're sharp, all right. And they have great edge geometry for lopping bits and pieces off of things or people. The metallurgy and forging technology involved were also very highly developed--like I said earlier, they were a valued weapon of war for generations. I was more referring to the whole "I can cut metal as well as a plasma cutter!" thing.

As far as the sparring goes, the problem is finding anyone in JSA who spars. I'm sure they're out there, but many of them restrict themselves to bokken-on-bokken--or, even worse, pure forms. So they often don't use their techniques in a realistic format, so they might have some trouble living up to the quality of the actual techniques they know--if they knew that they knew them, so to speak.

I suppose there are Kendo people, but that always looks so much like sword tag to me.

As for no superior martial art: very true. It's kind of like acting: a good script and a good actor wins an Oscar, while the same script with a really bad actor (let's say William Shatner) is crap. At the same time, Dustin Hoffman made Ishtar more survivable than most mediocre actors, I suppose.

Of course, this is all excluding the one truly great art of all time: American Shaolin Jeet Tae Kung Lo Phỏ Pek Quar Tsing Tao Chi Fu Jitsu Do, or Way of the Everlasting Ultimate Flower Fist of Final Destruction. I hold a 47th degree black belt in it and am officially titled Ultimate Supreme Magnificent Grand Master of the Fluttering Lotus Petal. But you can call just me Supreme Grand Master....

Maybe I need T-Shirts....

Jason

[Peter Goranov]

Kendo techniques have been modified heavily because of it evolving in to a competitive sport from a pure martial art. I have been taught in the use of a bokken (mainly drawing techniques, basic slashes and parries and such) and jo (which is a short staff) by my Aikido sensei. The style used in Aikido is based on Ju Jitsu and i have seen some pretty effective things during training and belt exams. For example several opponents (tori) attacking the trainee (uke) from all sides with bokken and such. Impressive stuff, although i don't know how effectively one could swing a real sword like that instead of a light bokken (although we did have some pretty heavy ones designed especially for trainees to build up their strength).

All in all i think that if an ARMA practitioner attained an Aikido or Ju Jitsu seminar and asked the visiting master from Japan for a match he would probably get one. Real swords too, if he insisted upon it, although i am not sure on weather the master would risk it before testing the practitioner's proficiency (at control especially).

edit: it would be even more interesting if sword and shield were used by the ARMA-teer, and dare i dream: full armour sets? Well that seems a bit too much (as i doubt the Japanese sensei hauls around battle ready Samurai armour) but still seeing how sword and shield or maybe a big zweihander or claymore would fare against a katana would be quite interesting.

Continuing with that thought, what kind of swords do ARMA practitioners use? Battle ready ones (made from blocks of cold steel) or forged replicas? I am pretty sure that the top masters from Japan have their swords forged by a master swordsmith using traditional methods and some even wield authentic ones that have been passed down as family heirlooms.

By the way bashing at one's opponent with a shield is a valid tactic right?

On maces: How heavy was the head of an average two-handed mace? I always assumed it would be at least 2 lbs.. And the forward balance of the weapon makes me doubt it's effectiveness at parrying.

Oh, and the reads on the 100 year war are fascinating!

[LafayetteCCurtis]

The style used in Aikido is based on Ju Jitsu and i have seen some pretty effective things during training and belt exams. For example several opponents (tori) attacking the trainee (uke) from all sides with bokken and such. Impressive stuff, although i don't know how effectively one could swing a real sword like that instead of a light bokken

Well, it depends on who's doing it. Ueshiba-sensei was a highly experienced kenjutsu practitioner, so his movements still looked quite deadly--but later students of the aiki-ken sometimes forget that they're supposed to swing their bokken as if they were trying to kill people.

Ah. Note the word "kenjutsu" there. Part of aiki-ken may be based on techniques taught in Daitu-ryu Aikijujutsu, but most of it actually came straight from the Japanese sword arts.

All in all i think that if an ARMA practitioner attained an Aikido or Ju Jitsu seminar and asked the visiting master from Japan for a match he would probably get one. Real swords too, if he insisted upon it, although i am not sure on weather the master would risk it before testing the practitioner's proficiency (at control especially).

Real swords? I strongly doubt it. Neither ARMA nor the kenjutsu ryu practice partner drills with sharps. At best we might get a blunted sword or an iaito. Martial artists all over the world understand the rule of "safety first."

In all fairness, many ARMA members are formerly Eastern martial arts practitioners, and many are still active practitioners or those arts. So arranging a friendly free-play bout doesn't always have to be as difficult as that.

it would be even more interesting if sword and shield were used by the ARMA-teer

Brian Hunt is already doing some extrapolative work on sword-and-shield. Outside ARMA, Stephen Hand also does research in this field.

and dare i dream: full armour sets?

This is also something ARMA has already begun to engage in. I don't think I can describe it very well, so you'd better just jump to this article: http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

Well that seems a bit too much (as i doubt the Japanese sensei hauls around battle ready Samurai armour) but still seeing how sword and shield or maybe a big zweihander or claymore would fare against a katana would be quite interesting.

Interesting, but I'm afraid not necessarily instructive--because I suspect it will just prove the principle that there is no best sword, only better swordsmen.

Continuing with that thought, what kind of swords do ARMA practitioners use? Battle ready ones (made from blocks of cold steel) or forged replicas? I am pretty sure that the top masters from Japan have their swords forged by a master swordsmith using traditional methods and some even wield authentic ones that have been passed down as family heirlooms.

ARMA's training methods ( http://www.thearma.org/methods.htm ) already define the kind of weapons that would be used in each kind of practice--from plastic/nylon(?) or wooden wasters to padded blunts to steel blunts and finally to sharp steel blades (the last being mostly used only for solo drills and test-cutting for safety reasons--again, this is no different from the Japanese sword arts).

Of course, the issue of forged vs. ground is not such a major concern with replica European swords, since most European martial arts enthusiasts are content with looking for swords that perform authentically and a good forged sword doesn't perform any differently from a good stock-removal sword as long as both are adequately heat-treated. Look at this article for more information: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_groundpound.html

By the way bashing at one's opponent with a shield is a valid tactic right?

Yes, though the real shield-bashing techniques shown in the manuals are much subtler and much more efficient than what most people would imagine. And they don't deprive the wielder of the shield's protection.

On maces: How heavy was the head of an average two-handed mace? I always assumed it would be at least 2 lbs.. And the forward balance of the weapon makes me doubt it's effectiveness at parrying.

I think you'd be best served by looking at reviews of high-quality modern replicas of medieval maces and warhammers, like

http://www.myarmoury.com/review_aa_wham.html

Or the polearm statistics provided by the company that produces that warhammer:

http://www.armor.com/polearms.html

As for its effectiveness in "parrying," the first thing we have to keep in mind is that the heads of actual maces, axes, and warhammers were fairly compact affairs, not the unwieldy mostrosities seen in some fantasy art. Another is the definition of "parrying" itself. A mace is not a sword. Neither is a warhammer. So you don't defend with them the same way you would with a sword. Not to mention that most people who wielded maces, axes, and warhammers in medieval Europe were actually men-at-arms (the kind of people known in popular culture as "knights"), who generally had fairly complete armor that they could rely on to absorb most stray blows and even many aimed ones. BTW, I wrote an amateur essay not long ago about the definition of that term: http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/248242.html

[philippewillaume]

In terms of pole arms, the weilder would have no problem parrying any blows because the heads of such are actually very light. Also, the use of a two handed mace or hammer would be very hard to do on horseback, because of the need to have at least one hand on the reins. (many experienced horsemen dont need to do this, but it still helps immensly in a combat situation where you need all the help you can get.

hello nathan
About two handed weapon on horse back.
As you said I m not sure there is really no point; you have so much momentum that it defeats the purpose of using a weapon with both hands.

That being said, a fair amount of horseback technique have something like either use the second hand to help or you deflect a blow.

The trick is to pick up the reins back up and that second set of reins tied up to the saddle does help a lot.

phil

[philippewillaume]

Kendo techniques have been modified heavily because of it evolving in to a competitive sport from a pure martial art. I have been taught in the use of a bokken (mainly drawing techniques, basic slashes and parries and such) and jo (which is a short staff) by my Aikido sensei. The style used in Aikido is based on Ju Jitsu and i have seen some pretty effective things during training and belt exams. For example several opponents (tori) attacking the trainee (uke) from all sides with bokken and such. Impressive stuff, although i don't know how effectively one could swing a real sword like that instead of a light bokken (although we did have some pretty heavy ones designed especially for trainees to build up their strength).

Hello peter
I train in an aikido as well, in a style where we have broken and Jo. It is no aikikai, iwama, takemush, yoshinkan or tomiki, it is basically aikido as it arrived in the uk in the late 50. (what is yours)

Indeed O sensei used the Daito ruy , ju-jitsu style as a base, he was trained with spear and sword as well. (I am not to sure what style was his main).

Now most aikido style uses the ken and the Jo as body movement enhancing exercise so it is abit excessive to say that aiki-ken is a sword style, there are critical bit missing. That being said all the ken techniques that I know of are functional.

Lafayette, to be fair lost of people have forgotten that aikido techniques can be use to inflict vast amount of pain for a minimum effort. I understand the philosophical side and t for some people to develop solely that side of aikido but it has as well some demarcation from a more martial application.

ps my understanding of the using a saburui bokken is that it makes using strengh very dificult so that you need to develop proper bodu mechanics/ki.
or as ringeck said to stike with all the strengh of your body (on not like a peasant with your arms alone).

[LafayetteCCurtis]

ps my understanding of the using a saburui bokken is that it makes using strengh very dificult so that you need to develop proper bodu mechanics/ki.

Well, so true. Learning hasuji (edge alignment) with the bokken has greatly improved my execution of certain techniques, especially the shiho-nage. I suppose it'd also be helpful for understanding the works of European masters who drew very close connections between their armed and unarmed techniques, like Fiore or Vadi.

[Risto Rautiainen]

Considering cross sparring with jsa practitioners. If you really want to test your skills you could go to japan. Find a classical ruy. Preferably one of those who still were involved in challenge matches between different ruy in the 1960's. Although done with wooden weapons, these matches were conducted in a manner and attitude that someone could request a fight with sharps. So none of that "Let's adust our technique to using wooden weapons"-stuff. That's not so long ago. I believe there are people still living who participated in these bouts, where broken bones would be no suprise. Some people there take their martial art very seriously and I believe would be willing to defend their martial art's effectiveness to a quite high degree. This should be done in secrecy because these matches are illegal in today's japan. The problem would be to try to convince them that you are not going to sue them if you get beaten up. This is why they became illegal in the first place. All of this is of course hearsay and I have nothing to back this up.

[Jason Taylor]

All in all i think that if an ARMA practitioner attained an Aikido or Ju Jitsu seminar and asked the visiting master from Japan for a match he would probably get one. Real swords too, if he insisted upon it, although i am not sure on weather the master would risk it before testing the practitioner's proficiency (at control especially).

Um...matches with real swords? No Japanese martial swordsman worth his salt would do something like that, in my opinion. It's crazy.

My other problem is that nobody in JSA (that I've seen, anyway) practices with padded swords. Again, a "match" (as opposed to controlled free play) even with bokken/wasters would be insane. I believe John C. jumped in with a comment to that effect a month or two ago in response to the idea of full-contact sparring with wasters.

I'd love to see padded JSA practice, as opposed to shinai. That would be very enlightening. But as of yet, we've got to wait....

EDIT:
As for secret challenge matches with Japanese swordsmen using sharps, maybe that did happen in the 60's. Heck, it might even happen now (but I really doubt it). Still, why anyone would undertake such a venture escapes me. We're martial artists. Fighting another person with sharps, to prove a point, isn't the act of dedication to an art; it's sociopathic.

Jason[/i]

[Risto Rautiainen]

EDIT:
As for secret challenge matches with Japanese swordsmen using sharps, maybe that did happen in the 60's. Heck, it might even happen now (but I really doubt it). Still, why anyone would undertake such a venture escapes me. We're martial artists. Fighting another person with sharps, to prove a point, isn't the act of dedication to an art; it's sociopathic.

Jason[/i]

There's a lot more in the japanese culture that escapes our western minds. Traditions mean a _lot_ to some of them.

PS. A lot of WMA groups don't train with padded weapons, so it's not just JSA, who don't do it.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Tradition aside, I have no doubt that such illegal matches would have been frowned upon by the masters of the koryu schools. They detest boors and adrenaline junkies as much as we do.

[Jason Taylor]

EDIT:
As for secret challenge matches with Japanese swordsmen using sharps, maybe that did happen in the 60's. Heck, it might even happen now (but I really doubt it). Still, why anyone would undertake such a venture escapes me. We're martial artists. Fighting another person with sharps, to prove a point, isn't the act of dedication to an art; it's sociopathic.

Jason[/i]

There's a lot more in the japanese culture that escapes our western minds. Traditions mean a _lot_ to some of them.

PS. A lot of WMA groups don't train with padded weapons, so it's not just JSA, who don't do it.

Actually, I never said it was just JSA that didn't do it. I said I'd never seen anybody practice in JSA with a padded. It might happen, as far as I know, but I haven't seen it, nor any evidence of it.

I know full well that other WMA groups don't use paddeds. Guy Windsor's people start off with metal blunts and practice everything with control, for example. I've seen lots of others, as well, using wasters in sparring-like freeplay. But they must be using control (i.e., not exerting full power, even at relatively high speeds) to avoid fairly regular broken bones. And a full power shot to your body, at even close to the right angle, will break your ribs, period. And that's just one of many vulnerable bone groups. I don't care how tough an individual thinks he is, he can only dodge the reaper, so to speak, for so long. Heck, people break ribs in unarmed sparring all the time.

As for tradition being important, I'm sure it is. However, that tradition now includes right conduct, avoidance of unnecessary bloodshed, and self-perfection (outside of the ability to kick butt). As the esteemed Mr. Curtis points out, many of the masters would have frowned on this. And since it is now illegal, I would guess that sharps combat is not happening in any legitimate JSA schools with historical roots. Anything there is would probably be the Japanese sword-wielding equivalent of the Kimbo phenomenon here. And those aren't the kinds of people that martial artists (as opposed to brawlers) really want to have dealings with; it brings our reputation down. Besides which, taking someone to the hospital/morgue with a 33-inch cut in his body would be really hard to explain away as a shaving accident.

At any rate, I feel fairly safe in saying that, though we in ARMA like to train hardcore, challenging a Japanese master in a far-off area of the countryside to a duel with sharps is not on anybody's to-do list in the recent future. I think we'll leave that to the "boors and adrenaline junkies," as Mr. Curtis so adeptly put it.

Jason

[Jaron Bernstein]

I was thinking more in terms of just finding a JSA practicioner in the US and seeing if they are amenable to some friendly (with the emphasis in friendly, not "my style is the best!") waster vs. bokken freeplay if you are so inclined

[Peter Goranov]

It's great that this thread attracted so much attention I have been away because it's project submission time for me and i have to draw and animate for every second i have.

For me my knowledge in techniques helped in handling the bokken and jo, since i started training with them after a few years if practicing aikido. I had reached the point of countering live tsuki attacks and i even trained a few hanmi-handachi wadsa techniques. The forms in handling the sword and using one's own arms in Aikido are similar and it was easy for me to feel my bokken as an extension of my body. I admit though that i had to quit training because i moved abroad for a year and i am yet to find a new dojo after coming back to Bulgaria.

To me Aikido is appealing because of it's philosophy. Still i admit and certify that if a kote-gaishe, for example, connects in a real combat situation it will *end* it. (it breaks the opponent's wrist. It's even possible to use it bare handed against' an armed opponent)

Osensei was actually a renown martial artist and has even managed to defeat the best swordsman of his time three times while fighting bare handed. It was only after that he created Aikido (the way of peace). He has said some incredibly wise things that i have saved on my laptop and read on occasion.

Anyway let me clarify, when i said "real swords" i meant a friendly match with control executed, not a fight with intent to kill/maim the opponent. I am sure i will trust a Japanese master with his control over the katana. Still though a match with wooden weapons sounds much more realistic and i would pay money to see that.

Thank you again for the links Curtis, i will read trough them as soon as i have at least an afternoon to spare, your essay included I know i will probably find an answer if i searched the site but... Does ARMA only teach WMA's by reading battle manuals and historic texts and such? In JMA's there's a legacy that passes skills from master to pupil and we have today what was basically used in the middle ages (well slightly altered with each generation but still). However i think there was a huge gap in western history and i don't know if any practitioner today can trace his skills trough a line of people back to the days when they were used in real combat.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

To me Aikido is appealing because of it's philosophy. Still i admit and certify that if a kote-gaishe, for example, connects in a real combat situation it will *end* it. (it breaks the opponent's wrist. It's even possible to use it bare handed against' an armed opponent)

Well, yes. A more violent variation of the kote-gaeshi is actually present in many European combat manuals, and it closely resembles the predecessor of the aikido technique (from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu) in that it's not only a pain compliance hold but may also be used to cause permanent injury.

Against an opponent armed with a cruciform sword it is a fairly effective Kampfringen technique. Against an opponent with a complex-hilt or basket-hilt sword, you have to be able to 1) pin the opponent's wrist and 2) make sure he doesn't let go of his sword while you conduct the technique by pressing on his blade's strong with your own strong. It's a bit tricky but quite effective once you've got the hang of how to do it.

Does ARMA only teach WMA's by reading battle manuals and historic texts and such? In JMA's there's a legacy that passes skills from master to pupil and we have today what was basically used in the middle ages (well slightly altered with each generation but still). However i think there was a huge gap in western history and i don't know if any practitioner today can trace his skills trough a line of people back to the days when they were used in real combat.

Well, that's pretty much the conclusion that WMA experts have arrived at--we don't have an unbroken lineage from which to study anything earlier than Classical (19th-century) fencing. So it's been very much a matter of reconstruction and experimentation, where we test our interpretations of the manuals in controlled experiments to determine whether they make sense or not.