Opinion on striking

[Scott A. Richardson]

I'm looking for some educated opinions here. In the various fectbuchs I've studied -- which, granted, is not exhaustive, but its more than a few -- there is a great deal of time devoted to grappling. However, none of the illustrations of which I am aware show the combatants engaging in hand strikes of any kind.

Looking at dei Liberi, for instance, we can find numerous occassions in which the combatants are close and tightly engaged and would seem to call for a nice elbow to the temple or perhaps a hand edge to the throat. This is neither illustrated nor alluded to, with the focus being instead on grappling the opponent to the ground.

Why is this? Were punches, elbows, kicks, and knees simply not part of the EMA system? Or, were they not illustrated in the fectbuchs because the maters were attempting to teach to a higher level of learning (ie, anybody can punch someone silly, but it takes training to easily grapple him to the ground)? If they were not used in EMA, why not? Would it be an improper interpretation when studying grappling to utilize strikes, even when the opponent is open to one, if they were not originally used by the great European masters? Have I simply missed a fectbuch that illustrates such moves?

Please give me your best various learned opinions.

Thank you

[Matt Bryant]

It seems to me that the masters assumed that you knew how to strike.

Codex Wallerstein shows counters to punches. Wallerstein also shows kicks and knees to the groin.

I'm pretty sure Ringeck instructs a little on hammer punching and also straight, or cross, punching while having the opponent pinned.

I have seen illustrations from Paulus H. Mair that indicate open palmed punching to the face and throat(the players in these plates have sword in hand but are close in and using punches) and hammer punching a pinned opponent to the face. Also depicted are a knee to the groin and a few kicks to the knee.

Thalhoffer shows a kick to the mid-section while the swords are bound.


That is all I can come up with right now. This leads me to believe that various strikes, kicks, and punches were used.

[philippewillaume]

Hello
Ringeck tell use to strike and stoss (he never mentions the fist just the hand appropriately closed)
In the unarmored version there is a knee in the gonads and in te armoured version youy can kick the knee or the gonads but and I quote “you need to be carefull that he does not grab our feet

The targets are
The eyes, the Zigomatic muscles/lower jaw articulation. The temples, the neck and throat, the sternum, the navel, the gonads and possibly the neck-clavicular recess or the clavcicular-sternum recess

You can strike or use those as pressure points.

Ringecks tell use that when we strike we need to hold our opponent above the belt wit the left hand.
The idea of ringeck wrestling (well as far as I understood it) is to use throw down and pin, in case of necessity or emergency use the bone breaker or strikes/pressure points.

phil

[Scott A. Richardson]

Thanks, guys. That clarifies things a lot for me.

[Richard Strey]

I'd also consider the fact that, most likely, whoever was to be instructed to grappling was also instructed in the use of the dagger. And, generally speaking, stabbing with a dagger -point towards the thumb- equals a punch, while striking with the dagger -point towards the pinkie- equals a "hammerfist". Things so basic were not usually recorded in the fechtbuchs (with two "ch") at all.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Meyer is chock full of strikes. Elbows, foot stomps, some kicks. My current understanding is that this art integrates striking with the grappling. It isn't like "pure" Judo or western Boxing. You use your strikes to set up your joint locks/throws and vice versa. Then add weapons to that mix. If you want some specific examples beyond those already cited here I can give some.

[Gene Tausk]

I'm looking for some educated opinions here. In the various fectbuchs I've studied -- which, granted, is not exhaustive, but its more than a few -- there is a great deal of time devoted to grappling. However, none of the illustrations of which I am aware show the combatants engaging in hand strikes of any kind.

Looking at dei Liberi, for instance, we can find numerous occassions in which the combatants are close and tightly engaged and would seem to call for a nice elbow to the temple or perhaps a hand edge to the throat. This is neither illustrated nor alluded to, with the focus being instead on grappling the opponent to the ground.

Why is this? Were punches, elbows, kicks, and knees simply not part of the EMA system? Or, were they not illustrated in the fectbuchs because the maters were attempting to teach to a higher level of learning (ie, anybody can punch someone silly, but it takes training to easily grapple him to the ground)? If they were not used in EMA, why not? Would it be an improper interpretation when studying grappling to utilize strikes, even when the opponent is open to one, if they were not originally used by the great European masters? Have I simply missed a fectbuch that illustrates such moves?

Please give me your best various learned opinions.

Thank you

Scott - Petter's book has many detailed illustrations and descriptions of strikes.

Punches, strikes with the elbows, kicks, knee strikes - all were part of Western arts.

[Scott A. Richardson]

Thank you all. I appreciate your learned information.

[Shane Smith]

Codex Wallerstein has many empty hand strikes within it's pages.

[MJuingong]

Also, many of the fights were expected to be with armored opponents. A punch to a piece of armor isn't usually useful.

[Gene Tausk]

Also, many of the fights were expected to be with armored opponents. A punch to a piece of armor isn't usually useful.

Please log off and sign in with your real first and last name as clearly specified by our Forum rules.

[JeffGentry]

I am of the opinion that we do not see much striking because once you get to a certain distance, the clinch, it is not nearly s effective, Mike Cartier just wrote a good essay/description of the phase's/range's of fighting based on Meyer it also applies to unarmed combat.

More often than not a fight will go from throwing punch's to a clich very quickly because most people do not want to stay out at arm's length and get hit in the face, so they instinctively grab and pull the opponent in, a one punch knockout is not common outside organized competition, so now they are close we go to throw's and lock's which require some skill and training if we want to end up in a superior position once we get them close or take the opponent down.

Personaly I like to watch a good boxing match or MMA event with good strike's, personaly I hate to get hit and do not practice striking all that much because of it so I concentrate on clinch, takedown's and grappling it is were i am comfortable I would only strike to get close and clinch, just personal prefrence.

Jeff

[Brian Hunt]

with a little practice, good hard strikes can be thrown from the clinch and they can be a good way to help unbalance your opponent and set him up for throws, takes downs, various holds, etc. Certain techniques work much better if you have a moment of hesitation from your opponent due to being unbalanced after being struck to areas such as the face, throat, or even the heart.

At least this has worked for me.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

[Shane Smith]

I am of the opinion that we do not see much striking because once you get to a certain distance, the clinch, it is not nearly s effective, Mike Cartier just wrote a good essay/description of the phase's/range's of fighting based on Meyer it also applies to unarmed combat.

More often than not a fight will go from throwing punch's to a clich very quickly because most people do not want to stay out at arm's length and get hit in the face, so they instinctively grab and pull the opponent in, a one punch knockout is not common outside organized competition, so now they are close we go to throw's and lock's which require some skill and training if we want to end up in a superior position once we get them close or take the opponent down.

Personaly I like to watch a good boxing match or MMA event with good strike's, personaly I hate to get hit and do not practice striking all that much because of it so I concentrate on clinch, takedown's and grappling it is were i am comfortable I would only strike to get close and clinch, just personal prefrence.

Jeff

I'm not in total agreement. Once in close, I'll still be punching, headbutting, kneeing ,elbowing and everything else. If it's for keeps, I'm going to be ripping off the other guys testicles and gouging out his eyeballs.

I'd say you close to clinch by choice because by your own admission, you don't work strikes much. Ground fighting is necessary of course, but it is not the natural end of all fighting. If you're fighting on a battlefield, rolling around on the ground with one guy is not a great idea if you can take him out standing so that you can face the next threat. Would you get in a self defense situation with three men and seek to take one down or grapple with him in a clinch while the other two stood ready to hand or would you use your skills to evade them and take them out from your feet? How about if someone has a screwdriver or pencil in their pocket that you didn't notice? Ground and pound is great when there are rules to protect everyone. It is not so good in the face of a dire threat with armed, multiple opponents.

The ground fighing in the source-texts is very often intended for use in a one-on-one judicial duel or the inoportune occasions of having no other choice in earnest in my opinion. I don't beleive it was the ideal even for a minute...Now throwing the other guy down or breaking his joints while standing is a wonderful thing and there we agree

[Jeff Hansen]

Check out the "horizontal stances" in Wallerstein. They all start with something about freeing one hand and "go around with him for a while". "Going around" isn't just pushing and pulling. It's using knees, ellbow, that free hand, headbutting, and anything else you like, to beat the heck out of the guy. That creates the time and space needed to execute the throw.