Reproduction daggers

[Benjamin Mabry]

I'm working on a minor in Classical Studies and out of curiousity (and more a whim than not) I picked up a reproduction of a pugio dagger. I've read a great deal on this forum about the prevalence of sword-shaped lumps of steel on the market right now, and I was wondering if the same applied to knives and daggers. Was a historical dagger merely a metal wedge of small size or were historical daggers, like historical swords, made to a standard which modern reproductions do not stand up to? Thank you.

[s_taillebois]

I'm working on a minor in Classical Studies and out of curiousity (and more a whim than not) I picked up a reproduction of a pugio dagger. I've read a great deal on this forum about the prevalence of sword-shaped lumps of steel on the market right now, and I was wondering if the same applied to knives and daggers. Was a historical dagger merely a metal wedge of small size or were historical daggers, like historical swords, made to a standard which modern reproductions do not stand up to? Thank you.

Much of the situation would be linked to the period, but also to social and economic status. For the medieval lower orders, functional forms of iron or steel edged dagger would have been valued. Even if the manufacture may have been a little crude. Have to consider (in Europe) that until the last few centuries many people did not have metal eating utensils or plates. Accordingly a mixed use implement like a dagger, would have been prized. It also wasn't uncommon for daggers to be made from swords which had been broken or unfinished parts. So the poor did have weapons although less ornate or less well made. Yoemanry, another condition, because although of the lower orders, some did make a fair piece of money (looting or otherwise), and would have been positioned to benefit from battlefield pickups. (The Welsh who hired out to the English armies, especially in the 100 years war period, were very well know for their dagger work. The aristocrats who hired them often disliked them, and those they fought hated them...dying by a Welshman sticking his dagger through gaps in the armor was just so offensive...being murdered by the lower orders and all) Plus the armament industries of the time would have been quite happy to sell them to those who could pay the toll...those that couldn't got the pointy bits of lesser quality.
Aristocracy, obviously higher qaulity as both a weapon and marker of status. . That was part and parcel of the armour plated aristocracy (although they were administrators as much as soldiers).
For both groups, another factor would have been the giving of tontine daggers/knifes recalling pacts which had been made (they gave these at weddings, land transfers, leases, and etc) In general these were kept as a reminder of that bond, and probably not used for either bread or blood. Also there would have been some daggers made for the more obtuse spiritual beliefs of the time....these kind weirdly enough, are still in use. Although I do not know if the goings on espoused in the grimoires would have required a battlefield weapon (having drawn blood) or one which had been unsullied .
As for modern daggers, many are of fairly high standards of manufacture. And probably relative to income, much easier to acquire than in the earlier period.
And some earlier types of dagger, such as rondels, couldn't have been that hard to make. And perhaps (excepting such as warding daggers) the distinction between a knife and a dagger may not have been that marked.
The problem with modern swords, is that these are a limited use item for a limited market. Those who study the art are a fairly small population, and so the money is in the clunky bits of pointed steel for hanging on walls. And obviously the making of a good sword is a more complex business than a knife or dagger, especially given there has never probably been a point where the salient techniques for making the smaller weapons have ever been set aside.

[Matthew_Anderson]

I'm working on a minor in Classical Studies and out of curiousity (and more a whim than not) I picked up a reproduction of a pugio dagger. I've read a great deal on this forum about the prevalence of sword-shaped lumps of steel on the market right now, and I was wondering if the same applied to knives and daggers. Was a historical dagger merely a metal wedge of small size or were historical daggers, like historical swords, made to a standard which modern reproductions do not stand up to? Thank you.

I've found that most cheap reproductions of daggers, just like cheap sword repros, are simply not made to function, only to be displayed. The effort is put into making them look good, sometimes even quite accurate to extent examples, but little care is given to the quality or metalurgical properties of the blade. It could be argued that a knife is easier to make than a sword, but it still has to be pretty tough to be functional. Most inexpensive ones are very soft steel and not tempered at all, so will bend or become damaged easily.

[s_taillebois]

Another problem area seems to be in the hilts and tangs. Being somewhat concealed those areas seem to be where the cheaper makers will really mess up.
And on the cheaper manner of dagger, the plating does tend to be a problem. Obviously in period weapons that wasn't a common practice anyway.
In all, a dagger's a much easier item to make than a sword. Although as M. Anderson notes there are those who do manage to fail in making daggers and such.
One area wherein even some of the better makers tend to miss is in the thickness/strength of the blade. In one aspect of it's intended use a warding dagger has to take a fair stress along the flat of the blade, a stress usually not a factor for a general use knife. However, it would be exceptional for most to use a modern reproduction dagger in the same sense as a period dagger may have been used. So, for most makers, the daggers likely designed as a ornate knife and little else. And since most of our laws preclude carrying daggers as the general purpose self defense, bread and cheese preparer, status marker, that it once was....there's little call for many makers to worry much about issues of functionality or quality.

[Benjamin Mabry]

Thanks for the response. I found it odd reading about Caesar's Gallic campaign or some other battle and not having the slightest clue what the author was talking about, or even what the equipment they were describing weighed or felt like. I'll admit, until reading some of the articles on this site, I had an image from De Re Militari of legionaries thwaking scarecrows, but reading about pell training made more sense than the image I had just from the course materiel. This site has been very informative to me, and this type of materiel ought to be part of our courseload.

Of course, it doesn't help when the professor's focus on the class is on things like, "The spear is not a phallic symbol. The phallus is a spear symbol, let's discuss." I'm not joking, that was seriously the topic of one lecture.

This pugio is definately sharp, and I stabbed the cardboard box several times, twisted the blade, and generally roughed it up a little to see if the hilt would come loose.

As for not carrying a dagger legally, in most US states a concealed weapon license covers that, and there's not difficult to get. It took me one day of firearms training and $100 fee to get a 4-year carrying license, which includes concealed blades longer than 4 inches, I think. For practicality, though, I'll probably stick with my revolver.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I have bought and owned, for example, a few Windlass daggers. They were just fine after I went to the trouble to put new grips on a couple of them, whereas one turned out to be just fine as bought.

That experience probably coincides with some of what other guys have mentioned or experienced.

Replica weaponry, whether swords or daggers, often exhibit the particular problem of bad grips, leading one to custom-make such out of hardwood, bone, antler etc. to allow the weapon to become decent & usable, assuming all other factors are okay with the thing.

[s_taillebois]

Much the same, have had several Windlass daggers, it seemed to be the norm to have to tighten the grips. However in marked contrast to some of their swords, no issues with too much flexibility on the dagger blades. But not that surprizing given the different nature of the blades.
Many of the really questionable daggers (and this is a personal preference) do seem to be too 'blade heavy'.
Perhaps the hinge point in regards to usability and quality, is in the subtle differences in handling...which is obviously subjective.