What do you call a 'kata' in WMA?

[Mars Healey]

I'm having this discussion with my peers over what to call a sequence or 'kata' as it relates to practicing Ringeck's techniques?

At this point, we're calling them katas, but that has too much of an Eastern Martial Arts connotation. Does anyone here have any insight as to what the Western teachers called their practice sequences?

[Jaron Bernstein]

I'm having this discussion with my peers over what to call a sequence or 'kata' as it relates to practicing Ringeck's techniques?

At this point, we're calling them katas, but that has too much of an Eastern Martial Arts connotation. Does anyone here have any insight as to what the Western teachers called their practice sequences?

To my knowledge in WMA there was no such thing as a kata (i.e. a long preset sequence of movements) as you think of it in EMA terms. There are specific single techniques that can be put together in any changing combination you choose in a flourish, but this more akin to the shadowboxing/bag work done in Muay Thai or western boxing than a 80 movement standardized Tai Chi or Karate set to be memorized.

[Matthew_Anderson]

We really don't do strict sets of movements that must be memorized and performed in order like in many traditional Asian arts. We have several excercises that consist of a series of cuts and movements that we do, but always emphasize that these are only intended to get accustomed to cutting along all lines, with both edges, and moving from guard to guard, etc. We always point out that once the basic movements are learned, they can be mixed and rearranged and used in any logical, free-flowing manner, just like in actual fencing. This leads to flourishing, which is completely free-form, and a really good excercise if done with realistic intent. I really don't like the whole idea of any kind of set "kata" for learning fencing, I'd rather focus on excercises that reinforce the basics, do lots of drills with a partner, and do a lot of free play. Just out of curiosity, what sort of "kata" are you doing to practice Ringeck's techniques?

[Jeffrey Hull]

I totally appreciate the arguments made by the fellows here, as kata may often be wrongly practiced in any case. Hence the sort of statment I have heard from karateka now and then in conversing with them, when they tell me of how they had a revelation that kata was not being done seriously in their particular school, that they found they needed to realise what every move actually meant, rather than treating it like a dance choreographed to music meant to win at a forms-competition. Hence, they "got it" regarding what it ought to be.

Just personally speaking, however, it does not bother me to equate the flourish or flourysh of 15th Century English longsword texts with kata. I do not consider the proper intention and practice of flourysh and kata to be unlike. It is about knowing what each move is meant to do, and doing those with intensity in an integrated routine. Of course, you can certainly do flourishing that is free-form.

[Matthew_Anderson]

I totally appreciate the arguments made by the fellows here, as kata may often be wrongly practiced in any case. Hence the sort of statment I have heard from karateka now and then in conversing with them, when they tell me of how they had a revelation that kata was not being done seriously in their particular school, that they found they needed to realise what every move actually meant, rather than treating it like a dance choreographed to music meant to win at a forms-competition. Hence, they "got it" regarding what it ought to be.

Just personally speaking, however, it does not bother me to equate the flourish or flourysh of 15th Century English longsword texts with kata. I do not consider the proper intention and practice of flourysh and kata to be unlike. It is about knowing what each move is meant to do, and doing those with intensity in an integrated routine. Of course, you can certainly do flourishing that is free-form.

Perhaps I've never seen kata done correctly then, but I have never seen a kata in which the techniques were performed in a realistic way as they would be when fighting. It always looks very artificial to me. I like to flourish more like a boxer would shadow box, simply throwing combinations, moving in and out of range, parrying, etc. Not going through a pre-determined set routine of any kind. Of course, my experience with Asain schools is limited, the only Asian art I studied is Judo and we never did anything like kata, we just learned to throw each other around and choke each other and so forth.

[Mars Healey]

We use a number of standard sequences to practice specific moves. We use them as warm ups and for also for teaching muscle memory. Some of them are quite elaborate while others are simple cutting drills. Many times we will go over a particular sequence repeatedly and then give it a go in sparring.

The old teachers must have had similar similar sequences for their students and, as such, had a specific name for that technique of drilling. Maybe that's it, a drill.

In the end, it's all semantics anyway; drill, sequence, kata, or form. The result is similar, no matter what we call it.

In debating their usefulness, I feel they promote muscle memory that will allow a quicker response to a particular situation in sparring. And that quicker response will be your advantage.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Perhaps I've never seen kata done correctly then, but I have never seen a kata in which the techniques were performed in a realistic way as they would be when fighting. It always looks very artificial to me. I like to flourish more like a boxer would shadow box, simply throwing combinations, moving in and out of range, parrying, etc. Not going through a pre-determined set routine of any kind. Of course, my experience with Asain schools is limited, the only Asian art I studied is Judo and we never did anything like kata, we just learned to throw each other around and choke each other and so forth.

Oh, I actually agree with you, kata seems rarely done properly. I was really lucky when I practiced jujitsu and we did kata for kaibo, jo, bo and whatnot, since my teacher actually explained every little thing, would have us do the parts as seperate drills versus partners, and then even controlled kumite, etc., because he did not want our weapon kata to be a ridiculous dance where a fighter does not realise what the hell is going on. And like I implied, I have talked with karateka who have agreed with me that often their kata are no better than a choreography for merely getting through by a student, or just as bad, some kind of ridiculous gymnastics routine for winning a trophy at a tourney -- at least until they hopefully "get it", often, sadly without any teacher telling them, but because they had some kind of revelation about it on their own, or maybe found some dusty old-school karate book in a library where the author actually bothered to explain the significance it ought to have.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Funny. The reason I gave up Tai Chi practice has nothing to do with the applications. In every move in a very long (88 steps!) form are very nasty applications (throws, joint locks, etc.). Some the applications even resemble WMA ones (funny how the human body moves the same everywhere). But the way it is practiced defeats the purpose. If the instructor never actually shows the applications, you don't practice them (the very mild "push hands" exercise aside), and the form is always done at a snail's pace.....you have a dance routine that is good for stress relief rather than a martial art. I would wager that at one point in history Tai Chi did not look like the feeble thing it is today. I am loath to see WMA develop overly long forms lest the same problem recur. The other thing is simply for historical accuracy, I am unaware of long preset routines in WMA practice.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I am loath to see WMA develop overly long forms lest the same problem recur. The other thing is simply for historical accuracy, I am unaware of long preset routines in WMA practice.

Agreed. And it would seem that the anonymous English Additional MS 39564 agrees with that idea -- for it has things laid out into a multitude of flourishes, points and chases, most of which are not overly long. It seems like the first flourish is longest, and it has, depending how you count it, like 30 distinct moves, many of them done simultaneously (e.g. directing you to do a footwork while doing a strike, etc.). A lot of those are so short that they are more like the Stuecke of German manuals. So they have a value of developing muscle, speed, memory & control, but yeah, it seems to me that those sets of techniques in the 39564 were designed not to devolve into an elaborate spiritless dance (or presumably, at least, an English master would not want a student to treat them like that).

[david welch]

When we follow along with the exercises of Meyer or Doebringer, we usually just refer to them as "set plays". I am pretty sure I have heard it referred that way by others, also.

I hope that helps answer your question.

[Will Adamson]

I look at the "plays" in Meyer and Ringeck (only ones I'm really working from at the moment) as being examples of what to do with certain types of attacks. Nothing is set, it's an explanation of options based on certain principles.

Kata and poomse (korean) are supposed to teach the same things, but as has been stated previously, many have lost something. I found them a great way to get focused on the particulars of my technique, and to get my blood up before sparring. But then I would be accused of being overly aggresive in sparring too.

The real death of the training effectiveness of them was in making them a competition in and of themselves. I remember a kid from a school affiliated with my old TKD school whose parents travelled to a tournament eight hours away, and paid for a hotel room so he could do a tournament. At the tournament he entered the poomse, but not the sparring. All that time and expense, and he competed for about twenty seconds. I think he played with his Gameboy the rest of the time.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

All the same, the set-plays can be considered to be some sort of partnered kata; the similarity of their aims and methods to those of their Japanese counterparts are quite striking, far greater than those between WMA flourishes and JSA solo katas.

And, if I remember correctly, the technical section of Marozzo's manual starts with a warming-up sequence that can be considered to be a sort of solo kata.