falling from throws

[Eddie Smith]

As great as I think WMA are, the wrestling I have seen done seems to lack any specific landing from throws. I know in Judo they have a big emphasis on break falls, what is done in WMA to avoid injury in being thrown?

[Jeffrey Hull]

To be honest, I could only recommend learning all the break-falls from jujitsu or judo. If possible, learn the rolls as well. They are quite helpful and effective for safely falling on wrestling mats and even grassy-ground.

[Jason Erickson]

This is an area which ARMA could expand upon. Practitioner safety is important, and EVERYONE should know how to fall safely. The falls I learned in other arts have saved me more often than I care to consider, and taking a fall actually won a fight for me once.

Didn't one of the old fight masters say that the first step in learning how to fence is to learn how to fall? (could swear I read that here, but can't find the article)

[Jaron Bernstein]

This is an area which ARMA could expand upon. Practitioner safety is important, and EVERYONE should know how to fall safely. The falls I learned in other arts have saved me more often than I care to consider, and taking a fall actually won a fight for me once.

Didn't one of the old fight masters say that the first step in learning how to fence is to learn how to fall? (could swear I read that here, but can't find the article)

Our local study group certainly practices falling and the various throws. I wonder if breakfalls were considered too basic to include in the manuals. I would suggest that our reconstruction of ringen (with its attendant falling skills) lags behind our efforts with the sword.

[Randall Pleasant]

This is an area which ARMA could expand upon. Practitioner safety is important, and EVERYONE should know how to fall safely.

Jason

A number of the ARMA classes that I have attended have covered falling. Gene Tuask (SFS) has covered Falling in all his classes that I have attended.

[Eddie Smith]

you know there is a point in saying that the manuals may have seen falling as too basic. There are many things the manuals seem not to cover that one assumes would be taught. Sword and shield comes to mind.
but some things may have been assumed, reserved for classroom, or for some other reasson not shown in the manuals. Ground fighting is another example

[Jeffrey Hull]

I would even say that the Japanese break-falls and rolls are effective for negotiating wooden gym-floors. But like anything, they have their limits, e.g. do not expect them to save you from injury on concrete, stone, gravel.

Yes, it seems like certain basic stuff like break-falls were likely known to writers of manuals but left out as too basic. One may notice that a number of modern books about judo or jujitsu may not cover break-falls, as they are written with advanced student in mind. So if old manuals do the same, it should be no surprise to us.

[Gene Tausk]

As great as I think WMA are, the wrestling I have seen done seems to lack any specific landing from throws. I know in Judo they have a big emphasis on break falls, what is done in WMA to avoid injury in being thrown?

IMHO learning how to fall is critically important and must be learned. Unfortunately, once again IMHO it really cannot be learned from a book. No manual of which I know discusses this, but that does not mean a manual that may discuss it does not exist.

If you are going to practice this, or any martial art, with any degree of seriousness, you need to learn how to fall and roll. I would recommend taking a class in the subject. If none is offered per se, then take a judo or aikido class, since I know these arts concentrate on how to fall and land safely.

If you want to keep it "Western," then take a wrestling class (freestyle or GR) or a sambo class. But, learn to do it.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I would even say that the Japanese break-falls and rolls are effective for negotiating wooden gym-floors. But like anything, they have their limits, e.g. do not expect them to save you from injury on concrete, stone, gravel.

Yes, it seems like certain basic stuff like break-falls were likely known to writers of manuals but left out as too basic. One may notice that a number of modern books about judo or jujitsu may not cover break-falls, as they are written with advanced student in mind. So if old manuals do the same, it should be no surprise to us.

Jeffrey,

The Meyer manual (my favorite) has a number of over the shoulder throws, the ubiqitous fireman's carry throws and a number of other high altitude werfen. There is simply no way to safely practice these things without knowing how to fall properly. I have had a few occassions to throw people who have never learned how to land, and the results are wonderful to behold. They get disoriented and land badly. I think we can reasonably infer that if Meyer was teaching the shoulder throw, he also taught his students how to land for it.

[Jon Wolfe]

They may have intentionally left it out so that should the information get into a potential adversary's hands, they wouldn't be able to put it to full use. As was previously mentioned, should someone be thrown and not know how to fall, the throw could be much more effective, than on someone who does know how to fall.

[Mike Cartier]

yes you can keep the notion of learning to fall and roll western by studiying the many western grappling arts. (lutte parisian, freestyle, catch, greek sub wrestling etc) but there is one more western art which can roll better than anyone even though its not striictly martially related.

Parkour, they are free runners which combine several disciplines into one, they can perfom amazing rolls and learn i think know better than anyone how to disipate the energy from a big fall. Rolling oh the ground is nothing when you roll on concrete or after jumping off a 1 story building and rolling. You can find some videos on google and youtube.

[Randall Pleasant]

There is simply no way to safely practice these things without knowing how to fall properly. I have had a few occassions to throw people who have never learned how to land, and the results are wonderful to behold. They get disoriented and land badly.

Jaron

When the throws associated with Running Through are performed slow or at half speed where you land at the feet of the thrower it is easy to fall properly (as seen in the videos David Knight produced a year or so back). When these throws are performed at speed, ie. the person performing the throws stays at a full run, there is a slinging action that can result in you spinning head & foot around your mid-section, making it very hard to land properly. Of course, in combat all throws should be performed hard enough and fast enough that an adversary can't land safely.

[LynGrey]

well the general idea of a fall break is to increase the area of impact.

remember this formula dubbed "the wounding modifer"

velocity^2 x mass / area of impact x distance traveled.

the items on the left increase damage as they are larger while the larger the things on the right decrease damage. Fall breaks try to control the area of impact to reduce wounding on falling, since velocity^2 is gravity, mass is you, distance traveled is wear you started to fall. all of those are predetermined.. the only thing you have absolute control over is what gets hit.. do you fall on your head.. or do you fall on your arm, head, side and leg?

I would practice taking falls and try to flatten your self on the fall,try to slap the ground with your hands and legs to distribute the fall across your body.

[Bill Welch]

Yes, defiantly learn how to land and fall. Jake Norwood and I put on a demonstration in Nashville for some of the others in the group , with him throwing me progressively harder and harder, to show how important it is to land properly. For those of you that know Jake you can appreciate that.

It is amazing how hard you can be thrown, when landing properly, and be completely unharmed.

The most important thing is dont land on your head tuck your chin against your chest, Stomp your feet when you land, try to land as flat as you can, and slap the ground as hard as you can with the flats of your hands from the elbow down.

If you can do all that at the same time you can be thrown exceptionally hard and get right back up.

Oh, very important when you land on your back dont hold you breath. It can knock the wind out of you, or possibly render you unconscious.

[terry brown]

I think Randall has nailed it very well.
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In talking of wrestling throws, regardless of them being from WMA or EMA, one has to consider that wrestling throws in warfare, or even individual self-defence situations are designed to cause serious injury or death and as such, assuming that the throw was properly applied, rendered break falling difficult if not impossible. In this context it is interesting to note that sporting versions of wrestling usually have rules to reduce the danger, and by the same token making break falling possible. For example the rules might state that throws only count if the thrown person lands on his back, the position of the thrown person as he hits the ground thus allows use of arms and legs to break the fall.
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Another thing to appreciate, in real combat, is that even if the thrown fighter managed to break the fall the thrower is going to immediately follow in with sword, knife, etc. while his victim is still disoriented from the throw.
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Therefore, IMO, 'combat throws' can only be practised in a controlled, ie. non warlike, manner. To practise them at full speed and in a manner that allows break falling means that the methods must be modified physically from war-like to practise-like. This can change the dynamics of the throw quite considerably. For example, the basic cross-buttock, in a combat situation the throwing arm might strike in forcefully across the throat thereby hyper-extending the spine, not to mention causing trauma to the throat. The dynamics of this make effective break falling extremely unlikely. Done in practise the throwing arm goes across the chest, thus allowing the thrown person to control his body easily and thereby land with a break fall.
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We have no choice but to follow this type of safety practise but we should
be aware of the different dynamics involved.
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Best wishes,
Terry