possible crossover?

[Jonathan Ellis]

Hi there. This is my first post and I hope to be a member of ARMA soon. I have a question about technique. I am trying to study the european longsword and was wondering if the skills would translate to the katana. The reason for this question is that, in my experience it is easier to care for a katana than a longsword because the grip comes off and thus is able to receive the same rust preventing care that the blade gets. I also like the thicker tang on the katana. Seeing that buying a sword is a pretty major investment to me I am looking for one that will last. Ok so there are two questions in here.

1) Are the skills transferable? and...
2) Is it possible to get what I'm looking for in a European longsword?
Thanks for your time.

[Gene Tausk]

Hi there. This is my first post and I hope to be a member of ARMA soon. I have a question about technique. I am trying to study the european longsword and was wondering if the skills would translate to the katana. The reason for this question is that, in my experience it is easier to care for a katana than a longsword because the grip comes off and thus is able to receive the same rust preventing care that the blade gets. I also like the thicker tang on the katana. Seeing that buying a sword is a pretty major investment to me I am looking for one that will last. Ok so there are two questions in here.

1) Are the skills transferable? and...
2) Is it possible to get what I'm looking for in a European longsword?
Thanks for your time.

1. No. Aside from the very basic statement that both a katana and longsword (which you did not define, BTW, but I am assuming you mean a "longsword" from roughly 1500) are swords with some very basic techniques that will be similar, the two have nothing in common. Just the fact alone that a katana has a single edge and a longsword has two edges should tell you something. The mechanics and art of handling a sword with two edges are completely different. If you want to learn how to use a katana, find a kenjutsu school but don't expect the skills you learn in kenjutsu to apply to Historical European Swordsmanship.

2. You did not state "what you were looking for" so I have no idea if you can get this from a "European longsword."

[Mark Driggs]

Well, if you're interested in getting a good western style sword with sparring in mind, I would recommend checking out the Maestro line from Albion: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... aestro.htm

As for maintenance, all I use for my blunt is spray it with WD-40 occasionally. You can rub off any rust with a scotch or brillo pad. There is no analogue for removing a tsuka to reveal the tang with a longsword. I suppose you could remove the leather or cord grip to treat it, but then you'd have to put it all back, and that would be inconvenient. Besides, it would be many centuries (millenia?) before rust would become a problem for a longsword. Unless of course you plan on doing lots of fighting in the rain or underwater.

I can't think of any specific western-style skills that would help in a katana on katana fight. However, studying longsword would help you know what to expect better when going katana vs longsword. Some on this board have squared up against kenjutsu practioneers who knew very little about western martial arts, giving us a pretty good advantage in cross-training bouts.

Mark Driggs
ARMA Provo

[Jonathan Ellis]

Thanks for your timely response. I'm sorry for the confusion; I do not know much about the differences in the longsword yet. I know that a katana's skills do not translate well because of the number of blades, however I want a sword that has a nice thick tang that I can get access to for cleaning and maintenance. I thought that since, in general, the handling of a longsword required more care than a katana it would translate... I could be wrong. I intend to study European swordsmanship. I just want my sword to last as long as possible, and a large tang and the ability to clean and maintain it. Is this a wrong course of thought?

[Mike Cartier]

[quote="Jonathan Ellis"]I could be wrong. I intend to study European swordsmanship. I just want my sword to last as long as possible, and a large tang and the ability to clean and maintain it. Is this a wrong course of thought?quote]

Hmm i would say yeah wrong path, use a katana for training japanese swordsmanship and use a longsword for western swordsmanship.

if you want my opinion the longsword is much much better but hey i am horribly biased so take that with a grain of salt

[Jay Vail]

Hi there. This is my first post and I hope to be a member of ARMA soon. I have a question about technique. I am trying to study the european longsword and was wondering if the skills would translate to the katana. The reason for this question is that, in my experience it is easier to care for a katana than a longsword because the grip comes off and thus is able to receive the same rust preventing care that the blade gets. I also like the thicker tang on the katana. Seeing that buying a sword is a pretty major investment to me I am looking for one that will last. Ok so there are two questions in here.

1) Are the skills transferable? and...
2) Is it possible to get what I'm looking for in a European longsword?
Thanks for your time.

I used to think that they were alike, but I no longer think so. Kenjutsu and European longsword play share a few fundamental concepts, techniques and wards, but there are many key differences. I much prefer the longsword. If I had the choice I would not carry a katana.

[AlexCSmith]

Well if your worried about the size of the tang get a Grosse Messer.

They've got a full tang that runs all the way through the hilt (sort of looks like a giant steak knife).

Of course there are much more important attributes to worry about that the size of the tang but if that's your main requirment...

[Jaron Bernstein]

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... soldat.htm


http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... knecht.htm

Are examples of western single edged blades with similar triangular edged geometry as a katana. I can't speak for how katanas are used, as I haven't trained with them. There are a number WMA manuals that teach the messer and dusack (essentially a training version of the messer). I don't believe that katana skill readily transfers over to the longsword. First, the longsword is often over 1 foot longer than the katana. I have found this extra reach useful sparring with someone who has a bokken. Second, the longsword has both long and short edges. Once you learn how to really make use of the short edges you can do a great deal more with it than a katana. Third, the cross on a longsword (and complex hilts on later western blades) provides better hand protection than a small tsuba. Finally, a short curved cutting wedge blade is used far differently than a long straight blade. There are certainly some universals in all fighing (i.e. range, conditioning, timing, footwork, etc.) and the skill of the fighter is obviously a major factor. But I would state with some certainty that katana usage is a very different creature. Our local study group shares space with other Asian martial arts classes, one of which uses a katana. After their class finished up and ours was starting I once asked to handle one of their katana. It handled nothing like the longswords we use as our core training tool. This is not disparage either the katana or Japanese sword arts. It is just more of an apples and oranges thing.

[Mark Driggs]

Second, the longsword has both long and short edges. Once you learn how to really make use of the short edges you can do a great deal more with it than a katana.

Just to clarify, the edges on the sword are of equal length, but when cutting with the 'short' edge (the one facing you initially), the range is slightly diminished compared to the full extension of a long edge cut. That is why I guess we also refer to them as 'true' and 'false' edges as well. I know some people have gotten confused by this terminology before (myself included).

[Will Adamson]

...but when cutting with the 'short' edge (the one facing you initially), the range is slightly diminished compared to the full extension of a long edge cut.

I don't think that is entirely accurate. Just a couple of nights ago I was swinging one of my wasters around while waiting for my lost luggage (with my swords!) to be delivered. I was wondering about the difference between the squinter and the schaytler as far as range. Using my garage door as a gauge I found that I was getting 1-2 inches more when using the short edge in the squinter following the same plane as the schaytler. I have some rudimentary ideas how this works biomechanically, but I pretty clearly saw the effects.

There are some other aspects of the squinter like...you'll just have find out for yourself.

[Mike Cartier]

yes I think Will is right here, some short edge cuts are actually longer than the long edge cut at the same angle, depends on the position and cut of course. Squinter and Zwerch comes to mind as well as mayers excellent rising short edge cuts

[Will Adamson]

yes I think Will is right here

Somebody check hades...I think it may have frozen over!

[Mark Driggs]

yes I think Will is right here, some short edge cuts are actually longer than the long edge cut at the same angle, depends on the position and cut of course. Squinter and Zwerch comes to mind as well as mayers excellent rising short edge cuts

I just tried it out to see for myself and you are indeed right! It seems to be favored on one side though. It probably is something similar to pronating the arm in rapier for those extra few inches.

[Will Adamson]

BTW, how does one parry with a katana? I had heard somewhere about using what would be our false edge since it is flat on a katana, but that wrist position seems rather akward and weak. I'm thinking that if they have parrying at all it must be done with the flat or counter cutting edge on flat.

Is there the same sort of disagreement over this in JSA circles?

[Scott A. Richardson]

I'd like to point out that its not merely in the number of edges that the longsword differs from the katana. There is also the fact that the swordsman has the option of using the quillions for defense, the scent stopper for offense, and the ricasso for shortened blade techniques -- which, in a sense, are almost like a whole different weapon. The katana does not offer this versatility. Plus of course there are the moves in which the sword is turned around entirely, an option which again the katana does not offer. Finally, there is the fact that the blade can be used to either chop, slice, or thrust, whereas the katana is used almost exclusively to slice. So put all this together and what we have is a system which is vastly different from -- and, in my admittedly biased opinion, superior to -- the system developed for the katana.