dagger attack distance -- a real life example

[Jay Vail]

At the 2007 IG dagger combat class, one of the topics we discussed was the range at which dagger/knife attacks can occur. Here is a real life example. What would you do in the cop's place?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2qa9FO7 ... ed&search=

[Jay Vail]

Here is another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=&mo ... 3HR2O2m068

[Jaron Bernstein]

At the 2007 IG dagger combat class, one of the topics we discussed was the range at which dagger/knife attacks can occur. Here is a real life example. What would you do in the cop's place?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2qa9FO7 ... ed&search=

It looks like they were booking this guy into jail, which presupposes he had already been searched. During an initial arrest or a Terry frisk (pat down search) it is preferable to control the suspect with a finger lock of some sort during the search rather than let him have that freedom of movement. It looks like the copper did alright there (going for the arm, the head and knocking the suspect off balance) in reaction. Beyond any specific technique, he reacted with something in proper time ((indes!) once he saw the knife.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Here is another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=&mo ... 3HR2O2m068

This is a good example of why you are trained to shoot people who get closer than 30 feet to you with a knife.

[Jay Vail]

Here is another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=&mo ... 3HR2O2m068

This is a good example of why you are trained to shoot people who get closer than 30 feet to you with a knife.

Jaron, look a little deeper into the vid. There are some serious lessons here, especially for people who don't have the option of reliance on a gun.

First, it gives the lie to people who claim nobody attacks with the icepick. Yet here you see an example. (Two, if you count the preceding vid.)

Second, note how fast the attack was. Even though the first strike was pretty much off camera, you can get a clear sense of the speed and ferocity of it. The guy who is stabbed first was carrying a submachine gun, but he was unable to deploy it in time to meet the attack.

Third, note that the attacker does not feint. He launches.

Fourth, the cops were trying to be nice, but underestimated the danger. Moreover, none of them was trained to defend against that kind of attack and so one or more was seriously injured.

Fifth, note that some of the cops tried to run away. At the end of the vid, one of the fleeing cops, who is closely pursued by the guy with the knife, falls and is stabbed. Running away isn't always a viable option.

At the end of the day, one must be prepared to meet such an attack unarmed, despite the risk.

[Brian Hunt]

The first video was a good example of how to react at close range to a knife. That police officer was in contact with his attacker so he felt the attack coming and quickly responded by driving his attacker back with one hand while covering with the other. Then did a good job of controlling the weapon arm while keeping his attacker pinned in a tight corner. His hold was a little shaky and if he didn't have backup he might have been in trouble when his attacker either freed his weapon hand or switched hands. After his initial defense, I feel the officer would have been better served to to go for a much stronger control of his attacker's weapon arm. But he did everything right.

The second video was a mess and a good example of why more officers need to be trained how to protect themselves against a determined attacker with a knife. Not one of those men were in a position to guard themselves from attack. They were carrying rifles that can be used as a good cover against a knife and none of them even tryed to do so. They were literally out of their element and could not respond to the aggression of that man's attack. At close range (which the attacker quickly moved to), a quick cover with their SMG's and a strong follow up with a rifle butt strike to the face may have ended things very differently here. Instead they panicked when he attacked and went into flight mode when they should have been in fight mode and several of them were stabbed by powerful, commited attacks. Both of these videos just confirm my opinion that any type of knife attack isn't really a fight so much as an assasination attempt. In the second video the man with the knife was certainly doing a good job of assasinating police officers not ready to deal with the kind of violence he was more than willing to dish out.

Thanks for those.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jeffrey Hull]

I saw yesterday's new episode of Human Weapon about Krav Maga, where they explicitly trained the fighter to deal unarmed versus knife-attack by simultaneous block & strike (what they called "bursting"); to utilise a rifle like a short staff; and, as much as possible, to deal with surprise-attacks.

I noticed in the Talhoffer-1467 there is a dagger versus dagger play (plate 190-right) that would work best using principle similar to bursting, and we may assume that Talhoffer taught such, whatever he may have called it.

JH

[Jaron Bernstein]

That all makes sense. You have certainly convinced me to do knife training primarily against committed attacks.

[Jay Vail]

The first video was a good example of how to react at close range to a knife. That police officer was in contact with his attacker so he felt the attack coming and quickly responded by driving his attacker back with one hand while covering with the other. Then did a good job of controlling the weapon arm while keeping his attacker pinned in a tight corner. His hold was a little shaky and if he didn't have backup he might have been in trouble when his attacker either freed his weapon hand or switched hands. After his initial defense, I feel the officer would have been better served to to go for a much stronger control of his attacker's weapon arm. But he did everything right.

The second video was a mess and a good example of why more officers need to be trained how to protect themselves against a determined attacker with a knife. Not one of those men were in a position to guard themselves from attack. They were carrying rifles that can be used as a good cover against a knife and none of them even tryed to do so. They were literally out of their element and could not respond to the aggression of that man's attack. At close range (which the attacker quickly moved to), a quick cover with their SMG's and a strong follow up with a rifle butt strike to the face may have ended things very differently here. Instead they panicked when he attacked and went into flight mode when they should have been in fight mode and several of them were stabbed by powerful, commited attacks. Both of these videos just confirm my opinion that any type of knife attack isn't really a fight so much as an assasination attempt. In the second video the man with the knife was certainly doing a good job of assasinating police officers not ready to deal with the kind of violence he was more than willing to dish out.

Thanks for those.

Brian Hunt
GFS

Good observations, Brian.

[Jay Vail]

I saw yesterday's new episode of Human Weapon about Krav Maga, where they explicitly trained the fighter to deal unarmed versus knife-attack by simultaneous block & strike (what they called "bursting"); to utilise a rifle like a short staff; and, as much as possible, to deal with surprise-attacks.

I noticed in the Talhoffer-1467 there is a dagger versus dagger play (plate 190-right) that would work best using principle similar to bursting, and we may assume that Talhoffer taught such, whatever he may have called it.

JH

I suppose 190 could be interpreted as a simultaneous cover/strike. I tend to think that it is not a single timed movement, however, but a double timed one, which is how I interpreted it in the book. I call it the grab and stab. It doesn't feel right to me to execute a thrust from above simultaneously with a cover. You'd have to be in high guard to pull it off, and most of the time, you are not going to receive an attack while standing in the high guard. You are not going to be in a guard at all.

In fact, 190 could be interpreted as a cover while the defender's weapon is sheathed. He covers, draws his weapon, and strikes. Of course we can't know what master Talhoffer intended. It is probably best to accept that any device as ambigous as those often found in the Talhoffer manual can have several interpretations.

I could see it being done that way with a thrust from below, though, but 190 is not that. See plate 172 for a grab and stab with the thrust from below. I still tend to see it as a double timed movement based mainly on the mental processes one goes through when confronted with a blade attack. Your first instinct is to avoid the blow. You do not think about a counter blow until the immediate danger has been blunted. It would take skill way above my pay grade to pull off a simultaneous cover/strike.

Moreover, the text points to a double timed movement in 172, for Talhoffer said the defender "counters by throwing out his left arm to catch the stab and *then* strikes or slashes with his own dagger."

[Jay Vail]

Here is another fairly representative attack, this time a thrust from below. Note that the victim of the attack is stabbed, yet manages to grasp the attacker's forearm just as we are advised to do in the manuals, and disarm him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw

Also, note that the owner of the store where the attack took place hits the attacker with a broom handle using the wrath cut.

Note also that the attacker takes an incredible amount of punishment and does not collapse.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Here is another fairly representative attack, this time a thrust from below. Note that the victim of the attack is stabbed, yet manages to grasp the attacker's forearm just as we are advised to do in the manuals, and disarm him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw

Also, note that the owner of the store where the attack took place hits the attacker with a broom handle using the wrath cut.

Note also that the attacker takes an incredible amount of punishment and does not collapse.

Egads.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I suppose 190 could be interpreted as a simultaneous cover/strike. I tend to think that it is not a single timed movement, however, but a double timed one, which is how I interpreted it in the book. I call it the grab and stab. It doesn't feel right to me to execute a thrust from above simultaneously with a cover. You'd have to be in high guard to pull it off, and most of the time, you are not going to receive an attack while standing in the high guard. You are not going to be in a guard at all.

In fact, 190 could be interpreted as a cover while the defender's weapon is sheathed. He covers, draws his weapon, and strikes. Of course we can't know what master Talhoffer intended. It is probably best to accept that any device as ambigous as those often found in the Talhoffer manual can have several interpretations.

I was simply advocating that Talhoffer's play in plate 190 was a simultaneous move of cover & strike because that seems like the quickest way to achieve it, albeit a more acrobatic way, than doing it in two distinct yet quickly successive moves. But arguably, if the dagger-fighter can do it in one pouncing movement, then that must be better for his chances of winning & surviving that play.

The two fighters starting in high guards was as likely as one starting in high guard while the other still had his weapon sheathed, as any such situation gets addressed in various manuals. Both dagger-fighters at the ready was a likely thing in context of the armoured duels for which most of those dagger-plays by Talhoffer and other fight-masters were training their patrons. But they did also address one guy getting the "quick-draw" and the other guy having to deal with that.

[Randall Pleasant]

Jeffrey

If the man on the left has simply set aside the adversary's weapon I might could see a single time action. However, given that he has a grip on the arm itself I have to go with Jay on this one.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Jeffrey

If the man on the left has simply set aside the adversary's weapon I might could see a single time action. However, given that he has a grip on the arm itself I have to go with Jay on this one.

Sure, I can understand that. My idea of it can work with a drawing or sliding cover, that ends in the grip proper. But if you all find it is more workable in two parts, then I respect that.