Medieval Boxing or Modern Addition

[Stewart Sackett]

In all the manuals I have read I don’t believe I’ve noted any stances or postures specifically related to boxing. That is to say that, although there are strikes & defenses against strikes, no strikes or defenses seem to come from recognizable boxing stances but rather from wrestling postures. There seems in fact to be a complete absence of boxing from the time of the fall of Rome to the rise of bare-knuckled pugilism (significantly after the medieval period).

I’m not entirely surprised by this as a bias in favor of grappling seems to me to be quite sensible in a period when opponents may well be wearing armour. I was therefore surprised to note that at approximately 1 minute & 27 seconds into this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM a man is seen to shadow box with the camera.

Now, I have not had the opportunity to read Ott Jud’s work myself & so was hoping that those who have could shed some light on this issue. Does Ott include pugilistic techniques in his repertoire & if so: what techniques & how are they featured? If not: what is the general opinion of the practice of integrating techniques into Ringen that, although functional, are not present in or implied by the manuals.

[Jeffrey Hull]

In all the manuals I have read I don’t believe I’ve noted any stances or postures specifically related to boxing. That is to say that, although there are strikes & defenses against strikes, no strikes or defenses seem to come from recognizable boxing stances but rather from wrestling postures. There seems in fact to be a complete absence of boxing from the time of the fall of Rome to the rise of bare-knuckled pugilism (significantly after the medieval period)...If not: what is the general opinion of the practice of integrating techniques into Ringen that, although functional, are not present in or implied by the manuals.

I have just finished an extensive article addressing precisely that, but that is all I want to say presently. I hope to reveal the article soon.

If others have thoughts about this fine question posed by SS, then please let us know what you think.

[Stewart Sackett]

I have just finished an extensive article addressing precisely that, but that is all I want to say presently. I hope to reveal the article soon.

If others have thoughts about this fine question posed by SS, then please let us know what you think.

Just to clarify:

Are you saying you’ve written an article about the role of striking & strike defense in Ringen or that you’ve written an article about the role of modern techniques in the practice of reconstructed historical fighting arts?

Either way I’d love to read it.

[Axel Pettersson]

I’m not entirely surprised by this as a bias in favor of grappling seems to me to be quite sensible in a period when opponents may well be wearing armour. I was therefore surprised to note that at approximately 1 minute & 27 seconds into this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM a man is seen to shadow box with the camera.

In the clip there are some moves that perhaps are not especially from Ott . for example you see a spin kick in 2.12, and some of the still photos are from David Lindholms bare knuckle seminar at last years swordfish event. Tomek who is the guy doing the shadow boxing and spin kick has done shotokan and hwarangdo before he started hema, and some clips is probably just fooling around.

Punching seems to be more entry techniques or to break free from a grip.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I have just finished an extensive article addressing precisely that, but that is all I want to say presently. I hope to reveal the article soon.

If others have thoughts about this fine question posed by SS, then please let us know what you think.

Just to clarify:

Are you saying you’ve written an article about the role of striking & strike defense in Ringen or that you’ve written an article about the role of modern techniques in the practice of reconstructed historical fighting arts?

Either way I’d love to read it.

Oh, along the lines of "the role of striking & strike defense in Ringen."

BTW: Lindholm gave me advice on it and got to see early drafts of it. I hope he is doing well.

I hope to get it out soon, thanks for interest.

JH

[Corey Roberts]

Sounds interesting, looking forward to it.

[Maarten Franks Spijker]

I too would be interested in this article.

To Stewart: There are some hints to possible boxing guards in Petter's manual, which I am currently researching. There are several times where he mentions a "fist strike" and in Part 8, Engraving 1 you can clearly see a vertical punch. One interesting thing is that the one punching does not guard with the off hand. Have a look around, I'm sure you'll find more than just this example.

[philippewillaume]

well i think it quite clear in ringeck that atemi (knee, hands/fist strike, gauging) are integral part of the fight.
it is clear as well that it is not "boxing" you ar using you strikes to get penetration. so ity is more like the MMA fashion.

that being said there are very few of the medival master mentions stiking (the only one i know of is Fiore)

Von mort stossen: der erst.
About the murder stike the first
Greyff den man an mitt der lincken hand ober der gürtel, wo du wilt. Domitt stoß in mitt diner gerechten hand zugeschlossene (73 v )mitt kröfften ansin hertz. Do mitt greyff ain ringen, so es dir beste werden mag, vnnd folgdem ringen mitt brüchen vnd wider brüchen. Die selben bruch vnd widerbruch thu in allen ringen: zu rosß, zu füssen, gewäpnet oder bloß, zu lauffens, ligend oder vffstendig.

Grab the man with the left hand above the belt, where you whish/want. At the same time with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?) /or right hand closed/locked strike at his heart. With that grab him with a wrestling you may think is the best. An follow up with the breaks and counter breaks (if wider is wider=against it is possible to be more breaks wider = wieder but less likely) the same break and counter-breaks done in all the wrestling: on horse by foot, armed (as in armoured) or naked (as in with normal clothes), getting at each other, standing/couching or raising up .

Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch.

Item in all wrestling that you do, so find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins) are superior/ straightforward /chiefly researched (gepurt=purer= pur machen, untersuchen Ins reine bringen) and also auf stons (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}

phil

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

I like the instinct at work behind this thread.

Boxing as we now have it is quite new, even at the turn of the last century there were enough differences in the rules that the tactics of the ring were different.

On the MMA forums it is not uncommon to hear Chuck Liddell and others described as being very good "anti-grappling" with their striking, but not likely able to compete in high level striking only events such as K1.

I think if we extend the model to the periods of the Medieval/Renaissance masters we might find similar forces at work. When weapons are either omnipresent or universally assumed, and armor of differing types being widespread Im certain that the whole role of striking changes to fit the larger situation.

I like what somebody else said about striking being penetrating, and not like boxing.

[Stewart Sackett]

One interesting thing is that the one punching does not guard with the off hand.

This is exactly what I meant by “no strikes or defenses seem to come from recognizable boxing stances but rather from wrestling postures”. For a modern boxer (& one could even guess an ancient Greek or a Victorian boxer) the idea of not guarding with the free hand would be unthinkable (unless we are discussing Roy Jones Jr.), even in MMA fighters try to keep their hands in some kind of boxing stance. In contrast the fightbooks tend to depict the free hand so low as to be useless for strike defense, although quite useful in blocking an opponent who shoots in for a takedown.

P.S. I will try to make some study of the Petter’s manual. Thank you for the recommendation.

[Maarten Franks Spijker]

I agree with what you say in that it seems ridiculous now, but, and I am still researching this matter, I think that at that time people didn't even focus on punching, more of an entry or supplementary strike. They would try to get close and take them down and finish them on the ground, perhaps. But when we are trying to recreate a functional self defense system we must also, of course, take into consideration modern methods of attack in order to be able to defend against them.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I agree with what you say in that it seems ridiculous now, but, and I am still researching this matter, I think that at that time people didn't even focus on punching, more of an entry or supplementary strike. They would try to get close and take them down and finish them on the ground, perhaps. But when we are trying to recreate a functional self defense system we must also, of course, take into consideration modern methods of attack in order to be able to defend against them.

I would argue that this art (even on the unarmed side) is holistic in how it uses strikes, throws and grappling together in the same fight as needed. To take one example, look at the basic downward dagger stab found in any number of manuals. Take away the dagger and you have the hammer fist. Add a longsword and you have a pommel strike. There is one Meyer play that I interpret as starting off with an elbow and flows from there into a throw for example.

[philippewillaume]

One interesting thing is that the one punching does not guard with the off hand.

This is exactly what I meant by “no strikes or defenses seem to come from recognizable boxing stances but rather from wrestling postures”. For a modern boxer (& one could even guess an ancient Greek or a Victorian boxer) the idea of not guarding with the free hand would be unthinkable (unless we are discussing Roy Jones Jr.), even in MMA fighters try to keep their hands in some kind of boxing stance. In contrast the fightbooks tend to depict the free hand so low as to be useless for strike defense, although quite useful in blocking an opponent who shoots in for a takedown.

P.S. I will try to make some study of the Petter’s manual. Thank you for the recommendation.

well Ringeck cleary tells us to garb him with the other hand before belting him one.

If we have a look at Mendosa boxing manual, they have one hand low and one hand high (and there is no shoots but).
but it was at the time where you could actively parry blow, in modern boxing you can only hide behind you gloves..

phil

[Jonathan Coupe]

... the fightbooks tend to depict the free hand so low as to be useless for strike defense, although quite useful in blocking an opponent who shoots in for a takedown.

Lower than a C18 or C19th bare knuckles boxer? As in figures 2 and 3 from http://ahfaa.org/boxingstance.htm -

...strange extended lead stance with the arms held relatively low and the legs very straight. It is very different from the modern stance we are so used to seeing. Does this mean it was not as effective as the modern stance? No, it just means that boxing had different rules, and like the modern stance, the older stance catered to the rules of the game...

[Boxing of the time allowed] grappling and rabbit punching... Various throws, such as the crossbuttock and back heel, were employed with great success if one of the boxers got too close to the other. Infighting was a totally different concept back in the day than it is now. No referee to break up a clinch, only a cheering crowd wanting to see one of the boxers get dumped. This vastly changed the concept of boxing range in the period. Arms were positioned to accomodate the rules since an extended guard is more favorable at the longer range that the fighters found themselves punching from. Boxing under the LPR was very much a range game.

[Stewart Sackett]

The issue isn't really about how low an individual hand is. The issue is that both hands are low. It’s hardly unheard of for a boxer to drop his lead hand. What is anathema is not keeping the other hand where it can protect the head. So, while a boxer may let his lead arm dangle while keeping his power hand high; he would certainly raise his lead hand in defense if he was punching with the power hand. In contrast, what’s often seen in the fightbooks is one hand punching while the other remains at the fighter’s side. Of course, the manuals also depict attached striking & that really follows it’s own rules.