A poorman's longsword?

[CalebChow]

I'm a college student. In my case, that means I'm almost broke even with my job.

Yet I want to get a decent, authentic blunt longsword for practice, and I'm wondering if anyone has any recommendations of any so-so authentic (but CHEAP) longswords I can get my hands on.
My target of interest is a tapered, sturdy blunt longsword whose design is meant to be for armor piercing--kinda like the one Shane has here:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

I found this when stalking these forums:

http://www.swordsdirect.com/war-battle-ready-sword.html

but even$150 is a bit expensive for me. Other cheaper sites I found look like the swords are meant to be wallhangers and are not weighted accurately.

I'm looking for something under 100 dollars if possible...finding a site that sells like, used or damaged swords would be great.

Thanks!

[Jaron Bernstein]

You might do better just to get a waster (wood or plastic) to start out with. If you are handy you can make your own for cheaper.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Caleb,

If price is an issue, your best bet is to wait. Save up the money to get a good one. Under $100 you are not going to really find anything that is worth salt. However, if you save $50 a month you can get a decent sword that will last more than a lifetime. Even a lot of wasters (if you buy them) are over $100. My advice: save up and get the good ones.

[CalebChow]

Caleb,

If price is an issue, your best bet is to wait. Save up the money to get a good one. Under $100 you are not going to really find anything that is worth salt. However, if you save $50 a month you can get a decent sword that will last more than a lifetime. Even a lot of wasters (if you buy them) are over $100. My advice: save up and get the good ones.

Good idea--better one that lasts a long time than a zillion that break every swing. Adds to the sentimental value as well.

Would you have any recommendations as to where to buy from?

Ah yeah, i forgot to add. About wasters...
I see that Schola Gladiatora and a lot of other WMA groups use Shinais (with adjustments?) as wasters. I've taken kendo for about a year, but I always had the impression that the shinais were lighter and balanced differently than the typical longsword. Did they have some modifications of the shinais to weigh/balance them properly, or did they just add longsword Crossguards?

[Jeffrey Hull]

Ah yeah, i forgot to add. About wasters...
I see that Schola Gladiatora and a lot of other WMA groups use Shinais (with adjustments?) as wasters. I've taken kendo for about a year, but I always had the impression that the shinais were lighter and balanced differently than the typical longsword. Did they have some modifications of the shinais to weigh/balance them properly, or did they just add longsword Crossguards?

Yes, the SG guys like & use those shinai. As much as I respect a lot of what SG does, the shinai buffeting is not part of it. Shinai are worthless to the craft of European Renaissance fencing -- no matter what modifications you make to them. (If shinai are so great, how come they do not even replicate katanas accurately, with a real kenjitsuka preferring bokken etc. instead -- think about it.) I would strongly recommend staying away from shinai. Get yourself a wooden waster, or perhaps a plastic waster -- either material is fine, although some fencers have preference. Wasters much more accurately replicate Western swords, are tougher, have better weight, true edge-discernment, etc.

[G.MatthewWebb]

[quote="Jeffrey Hull"] (If shinai are so great, how come they do not even replicate katanas accurately, with a real kenjitsuka preferring bokken etc. instead -- think about it.)

Jeffrey,

Good points. I have a small point to add to this discussion.

How many kenjitsuska spar with bokken as people in ARMA spar with wasters? I wouldn't be surprised if those kenjitsuka might switch to a shinai if they choose to spar. Additionally, I think that Japanese swordsmen used shinai in previous centuries. I think Karl Friday has written about the old debate over using Shinai among the practitioners of Japanese swordsmanship in centuries past. Perhaps someone on this forum can post a quote.

I agree with you, though, that using shinai is not to be recommended because they are too light, have no edge, etc. I think that if people wear protective equipment and don't hit with full power, then sparring with a wooden waster can be a useful learning tool and more so than by using modified shinai.

Matthew Webb

[Alan Abu Bakr]

(If shinai are so great, how come they do not even replicate katanas accurately

That is one point I find particularly amusing. The blade is better at replicating European swords, since it's straight (well, some European swords were curved as well, but you get my point)

Still, for full contact sparring, a shinai is better because of the simple fact that a waster will hurt you, if you use full power.
There is no good reason for using a shinai, for anything other than full contact sparring.

Still, it isn't the proper tool for full contact sparring, either.

A proper sparring sword is either one made according to the instructions on this site (which I find lacking. The instructions that is. I'd like better ones and more pictures. And a video version as well, preferably, but at least some improved instructions), or these.
(well those are the ones I am aware of)

Anyway. To address Caleb's question:
Recommendations for places to buy from:
Steel blunts:
Albion Swords. Their Maestro Line is specifically made to be good blunt training swords. Not to mention that everyone seems to consider Albion to be really great makers of swords (I haven't gotten one of their blades myself [not that I would be able to judge, of how good they are, anyway] ...but I am going to!)

Wasters:
With intent Wasters and Brian Hunt make plastic wasters, that are apparently quite good and argueably better then wooden ones.
As for wood, New Stirling Arms are, as far as I have been able to tell through info on the internet, the best.

[Jeffrey Hull]

My apologies to Brian Hunt -- I honestly forgot that he made those nice wooden dussacks

http://www.emerytelcom.net/users/blhunt/dussack.htm

He also has some larger messers, and apparently shall offer a shorter messer in future. He also has plastic & ferrous bucklers, and other stuff.

Incidentally: Any SG guys are welcome to tell us here what benefit they derive from shinai usage. But again, I insist they are unrealistic at best, and indeed, lead to bad habits of fencing. Moreover, I think that events like Dijon would be better served if their "longsword" tournaments used plastic wasters instead of shinai. Think about it guys.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Still, for full contact sparring, a shinai is better because of the simple fact that a waster will hurt you, if you use full power.
There is no good reason for using a shinai, for anything other than full contact sparring.

I am going to disagree here. I have sparred with Shenai, I have sparred with wasters, and the shenai hurt WAY more. People tend to think that because of the four panel construction of the shenai that it will dispurse the energy more, but the fact is: then they swing harder!
Now, I am a Plastic waster user, so my wasters to give and flex a bit. A wood waster is a club, and very capable of doing serious damage as all wasters are. But shenai give a false sense of safety that is simply that, false. Their use in HEMA is a farce and should not be condoned. Crosses (as far as I have seen) and not capable of stopping a Zorn in a properly executed Kron. Taking away one of the most useful guards of the system.

All that being said, If that is all you have, use it! But try and get the real thing as soon as possible. You will see immediate changes.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

but the fact is: then they swing harder!

So if it hurts more, because people use more force?
Well, when I say full contact sparring, I mean sparring with full contact, full speed and full power.

A shinai hurts less then a waster, if you use the same amount of force.
Of course a hit from a shinai still hurts, but you don't get harmed (well maybe bruises occasionally). I know from experience. The place were I train uses them.

All that being said, If that is all you have, use it! But try and get the real thing as soon as possible. You will see immediate changes.

Agreed.
It's better then nothing, but certainly not good.

[Axel Pettersson]

Incidentally: Any SG guys are welcome to tell us here what benefit they derive from shinai usage. But again, I insist they are unrealistic at best, and indeed, lead to bad habits of fencing. Moreover, I think that events like Dijon would be better served if their "longsword" tournaments used plastic wasters instead of shinai. Think about it guys.

Hi Jeff! Im no Schola guy, but I am one who moved due to university studies and so went from sparring with wood and padded wasters in ARMA to spar with shinai in GHFS, so my opinion might be worth something to you .

I had, and still have, the same resentments to shinai as you state, without modification they are little more than a toothpick .

That said, if you mess around with it some, make edges discernable (easily done, jsut tape the two middle slabs together and voila), add weight (balanced) and then some (like this way, I did something similar myself: http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2/vi ... ber+shinai),
you have a functional sparring tool for these reasons:

-You can go at it full speed

-It is relatively cheap

-It might sting more than wood as someone mentioned in this thread, but I think real injury is more unlikely, a shinai bruises your skin, a wood waster can bruise your muscles.

-If you spar against someone you don't know very well, you can still spar pretty hard and fast due to minor risk for injuries compared to a wooden waster, I would suspect this is one reason for using them in Dijon (though I would not know as I have not participated).


Now, when I got my plastic waster I decided definitely on that over a modified shinai due to these reasons:

-It flexes in the trust!

-It is much easier to have a steel blunt and a plastic waster than to have a steel blunt, a wooden waster and a shinai (that you have to replace every so often), simply more practical and rounds up to the same cost (or cheaper, as I don't see myself having to replace my plastic waster soon).

-The plastic is way more realistic than a shinai, and more or less as safe.

-You don't have to mess around with modifying your plastic waster.

Once again, I have not attended the Dijon or any similar tournament, but I also think that a plastic waster is a potential replacement for the modified shinai in those types of events, I'll let the Schola guys answer that one though.


You will find sparring with both shinai and plastic at ghfs sparring video diary here (updated regularly) http://www.ghfs.se/Videomaterial/Videot ... fault.aspx

[Axel Pettersson]

Alan, out of curiosity, which group do you practice with?.

[Mars Healey]

Yet I want to get a decent, authentic blunt longsword for practice, and I'm wondering if anyone has any recommendations of any so-so authentic (but CHEAP) longswords I can get my hands on.

I can recommend the aluminum blunts at www.SwordCrafts.com . I have one of my own and the school I attend has 4 of them. One other student has bought his own as well. They stand up to full contact extremely well. Unlike our older aluminum blades, the SwordCrafts blade is rounded. This avoids the nicks and burs that develop on the squared-off blades.

Here is a picture of my sword.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

Alan, out of curiosity, which group do you practice with?.

Well I haven't gone there too many times, due to various reasons, and, again due to various reasons, haven't been there for maybe half a year (damn! I have to fix that!), so for all I know, they might have changed the equipment they use.

Anyway, as I live in Stockholm I go to Stockholm’s Historical Fencing Society

[CalebChow]

Hmm, so far I'm leaning towards getting the aluminum blades Mars recommended from http://www.SwordCrafts.com
Looks pretty nice and authentic--It's not like I'm gonna be killing anyone with those.

I'm guessing the blades are thicker than steel to match steel's weight and spine durability?

Any other thoughts about aluminum, anyone??