The Force and Fearful Fighters

[Casper Bradak]

Here's a quick story that I shared with our Director this weekend at the Iron Door Studio that he thought I should relate here. So, draw what you will from it.

A while back, I was sparring a meeker student with longsword wasters. I said something in a joking fashion rather like "This is my chi parry." Knowing this individuals predisposition and related shortcomings, I stood in zornhut awaiting her strike.
She struck a zorn from vom tag, and when it was on its way, I vocalized and feinted a blow from the shoulders with intent and emotional content, without really moving my weapon, thus causing her strike to immediately stop in the air while she jumped and blinked in fearful or startled suprise.

We thought this story might lead to helpful or insightful discussion on not only how to aid individuals with such predispositions, but also about the charlatans out there who do similar things yet convince their unknowledgable students and ignorant bystanders that it is in fact their "chi" or what have you that is giving them this powerful influence on people.

[Will Adamson]

You must be the Chosen One!

[Randall Pleasant]

Casper

That is a great example. Having grew up in the country I am use to doing this same thing with animals. A sharp yell can often (but not always!!!!) stop an unfriendly dog, cow, horse. And it can sometimes work with unfriendly people and neighborhood kids. Funny, I never thought about charlatans using this as an example of their chi. It does make sense that some unknowing people would think that they were hit by some unseen force.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

My question here is "why?"

Why would one use such a technique? Is it to scare an opponent and thus win? Or is it a show of bravado? For us in ARMA are we bringing this up to stop our comrades from exhibiting a weakness in this "Vocal Combat?"

It seems to me that Vocal Combat is a useful tool. Something that can help us to win even without crossing blades. I think another element is not just saying something, but saying something at the right time and in the right way (Similar to the three men in front of the firing squad joke).

I guess I think of vocal combat as more of a psychological warfare that is useful. I think it can be trained for most people to not be affected by it, but on a psychological level, if done properly there could be no real defense.

I would also propose that those who use the "chi" explanation are those who simply use this a bravado and are looking to be looking "good."

I guess that is my two bits.

-Jeremiah (GFS)

[Axel Pettersson]

I've heard somewhere that a hard yell raises your adrenaline somewhat for a second, compare how javelin throwers always yell when they toss their spear. A far cry from some mystical chi though.

[david welch]

My question here is "why?"

The reason to yell when you strike?

All of your power is generated in your hips. This is one of the biggest reason you step when you strike. If you make a step and stomp as hard as you can with the heel of your foot you are sending all of your bodyweight down and forwards. In boxing this is called a "drop step". Boxers breath out as hard as they can when they do it because it tenses up your stomach and couples your shoulders, where you swing from, to your hips... where all of the power is generated. If you listen during a match you will hear "pisst, pisst" at every punch. This is them blowing out as hard as they can through clenched teeth.

We step and stomp when we strike to generate the energy for the strike, and yell to couple our shoulders and hips. We can yell because we are not in that great of a danger of being punched in the jaw with an open mouth (that equals a knock out and/or a broken jaw), but some of us grunt anyway, just in case.


Of course, the other reason we step is because the mechanics of the step itself generates more rotational forces.

If you swing your sword through the arc you get from your shoulders, you get the energy from that arc. But if you step while you swing... you force the sword to swing through a larger arc in the same time frame. A bigger arc in the same amount of time = more energy.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

I do understand the stepping and the point of vocalizing in a strike.

I intended to further elaborate on my opening comment by the string of questions that followed. Then I intended to answer most of them.

I gathered that the thrust of the story was that by simply vocalizing Casper was able to stop the opponent from attacking "Vocal Combat." I was attempting to look at that as the primary form of combat, not in association with a strike, that I understand.

the full question would be more of "why would one rely on vocal combat?"

-Jeremiah (GFS)

[Will Adamson]

I believe the point is that the person being yelled at flinched, rather than the yeller having some special ability. Fearful fighters will be prone to such a tactic. If you attack with proper intent, this should not work on you. Intimidation only works if you let it.

[Kyle Shriver]

So then, the less experienced your opponent is, the greater chance of "Vocal Combat" working? "Vocal Combat" being the intimidation factor, and not the extra surge of adrenaline or momentum from coupling the shoulders.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Using the voice works on many levels, and the voice is a historically correct European combat tool.

It is bigotted to sugest that all those who describe the effects of the voice as evidence of 'chi' are necessarily charlatans, or are necessarily deluded in some way . . .. although I do agree that there is a lot of nonsense being posted on the subject and that there are plenty of faked chi demonstrations out there.

Practicing European martial arts does not require that we mock all reference to metaphysics or alternative physiological explanations, those who do so are entitled to their opinion, but there seems to be an assumption on the ARMA that Europeans are all mechanistic atheists and that the opinions of Gene Tausk and John Clements on these topics is the final truth.

Historically, European martial artists have been at least as metaphysically minded as their eastern counterparts. . . in my opinion what one makes of that is up to the individual and a little more respect should be shown for those with views not shared by the management.

In any case, the effective use of the voice can be described without reference to metaphysics. . . . and does not require us to talk about chi.


War cries, songs, trumpets, bagpipes and the like are all examples of the use of sound as a weapon.


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[Roy Robinson Stewart]

I believe the point is that the person being yelled at flinched, rather than the yeller having some special ability. Fearful fighters will be prone to such a tactic. If you attack with proper intent, this should not work on you. Intimidation only works if you let it.

True, however the yell can increase the power and intent of the person who yells, so even if the opponent is able to avoid flinching or being otherwise directly affected by the noise, the yell can still work by firing up the person who yells.

At the very least, an unexpected yell can be distracting.

Personally, I have found the yell to be very effective even against some well seasoned martial artists.

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[s_taillebois]

In in the original period, certain yells would also have had a propaganda value. Being inspirational to the wielder of the weapon and demoralizing to the enemy. Such as "Deus la Volt", "Allahu Akbar" or "Santiago" would be examples. It's not 'chi' per se but these were a form of projection of power, insofar they would motivate the people who yelled them or heard them. And in the ARMA sense perhaps not that relevant...however in the period which this forum studies these were incredibly important...In some cases to the extent that one could live, or die, because of the profound beliefs behind these words. These did have a major influence on the fighting effectiveness of the men who used them.
In some terms, mystical because of the beliefs behind them, and in real effect more powerful than modern affectations of 'chi'.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Why not mock something, by its name, that is often utilised charlatanistically? Why is calling chi fraudulent somehow "bigoted"? Hmmm? Actually I think it bigoted that the Western world is expected to accept the smug & unsubstantiated notions of the post-martial Asian martial arts of these our modern times, yet demean our own traditions compliantly. That is nonsense.

I tell you what: One of the biggest let-downs an Asian martial artist may have is the day he finds out that all the faith he put into Zen, ki, chi, the Tao, whatever avails him not in some knock-down drag-out fight with some thug who is actually trying to kill him. It brings him no peace personally and brings him no closer to winning the fight. And the last I checked, Musashi (a Japanese swordsman) never once mentioned anything about Zen, etc. He kept trying to tell the reader-fencer to go into the fight and fight -- not have faith in metaphysics.

Last I checked, nobody in ARMA ever disputed the obvious & substantiated spirituality contained in the fight-books -- Catholic Christianity, Marian reverence, European astrology & magick. (By the way: You shall not find any Kabala or Graalian tradition in the known manuals -- despite what some modern specious so-called fechtmeister would have you think.) Even if many of the modern historical fencers in ARMA do not believe in the spirituality of those times, they realise & acknowledge its presence in those manuals as facts of the age. But there is also evidence in the manauls of empirically verifiable interests, not dependant upon faith but upon reason -- physiology, herbal medication, chemical formulae. Thus the full spectrum of the Western tradition which we rightly revere. In any case, we do not find any suggestion in the manuals that fighting prowess gives way to metaphysical practice as the ultimate means to winning the fight.

By the way: I take advice and help from John & Gene, Casper & Randall, and my other many unnamed ARMA fellows. I take the collective Fechtmeister, physics, archaeology, kinetics and fighting experience as my ultimate fencing authorities. Since my ARMA fellows consequently develop & provide advice based upon the same rationale, I thus often take their advice or at least regard it if at times I may disagree -- because it is rational & substantiated.

So there you go. We are individuals, and we are proud of our martial arts. We need not justify that to you or anyone else.

[Will Adamson]

I believe the point is that the person being yelled at flinched, rather than the yeller having some special ability. Fearful fighters will be prone to such a tactic. If you attack with proper intent, this should not work on you. Intimidation only works if you let it.

True, however the yell can increase the power and intent of the person who yells, so even if the opponent is able to avoid flinching or being otherwise directly affected by the noise, the yell can still work by firing up the person who yells.

At the very least, an unexpected yell can be distracting.

Personally, I have found the yell to be very effective even against some well seasoned martial artists.

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I was just trying to steer things back to the original post, which was about a "fearful fighter" being susceptible to such a tactic. IMHO Casper's point was in why he had the effect he did, and that it is important for us to fight with the proper mindset which is to have an intent and focus that would shrug off such things as getting yelled at. Casper, please correct me if I'm missing the point.

And please don't try to fish for flames by dropping names.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

I'm not fishing for flames at all, I am merely observing a trend here which is : that anyone who mentions chi or other concepts which are perceived to have metaphysical content is labelled as deluded or a charlatan, that this attitude is actively promoted by the management, and that it is neither historically accurate nor necessary to the study of European martial arts.

Sound can be effective, so can a blade, and both can be defended against,sound is a real weapon it doesn't have to be an invincible weapon to be real.

And by the way, Casper's first post desribed those who mention 'chi' as charlatans, so it's not off topic at all to discuss the point.

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