The Force and Fearful Fighters

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Chi, if it exists, is a part of every human action.

Thus, in discussing the subject you can't just redefine it as something seperate from human actions (e.g war cries ) because then you have changed the concept completely.

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[Jeffrey Hull]

Casper's original valid point, plus my own points, have been totally misunderstood by a certain person illogically making individual & general ad hominem attacks to somehow support his meaningless point that all European fencers are thus "bigots" if they refuse to accept the existence of some unsubstantiated "energy" as the cause of fear in one's foe when a one yells loudly at said foe. To say that "chi" is a part of every human action is as meaningless as saying that every event is the "divine intent". If something is defined so broadly that it loses specificity it thus loses meaning. Those, good folks, are the true fallacies of logic exhibited in this consequently degenerated discussion.

We all know from the reactions of beasts as meek as squirrels to as mighty as bears that when a loud surprising noise is made it is shocking to hear and thus often causes fear. To convolute such a simple thing as that by imposing unsubstantiated notions of mystical energy, some unneeded complication of a metaphysical explanation, is ludicrous.

May this be the end of the argument. If any post ever deserved locking, may it now be this one. Please, moderators, put it out of its misery.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

[quote="Roy Robinson Stewart"]It is bigotted because it says that chi. . . and by asociation all other metaphysical or superphysical concepts . . .. cannot exist, and thus assumes that your own world view is paramount, and that all those who don't share your views are fraudulent and therefore insincere[quote]

It's called empricism (as in emperical science). An Occidental concept, last I checked. That which cannot be substantiated is dismissed as superstition.

You know, Mr. Stewart, I believe that the only person attempting to infuse politics into this discussion is you. This thread, and Casper's post that started it, never had anything to do with politics. It was you whpo introduced that element, not any one else.

John Cleese has made mention of this in a few interviews...how the people who seem to be "in charge" of what's right and what's proper...all seem to be the people who are offended the most easily. In Cleese's words, "that's somewhat sick...dysfunctional."

I assert that this is just another case of hyper-sensitive political-correctness gone mad.

-B.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

I object to people dismissing the idea out of hand, while showing tolerance towards christian beliefs. . . because it makes the forum feel quasi political rather than purely martial.

And I rather think that asserting that some ludicrous energy force applies to serious martial efforts degrades said efforts, and makes the forum feel quasi-fantastical, rather than purely martial and serious.

I agree with Mr. Hull. Casper's point is valid. The point has been made. This thread has served its purpose and should be closed.

-B.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

I object to people dismissing the idea out of hand, while showing tolerance towards christian beliefs. . . because it makes the forum feel quasi political rather than purely martial.

And I rather think that asserting that some ludicrous energy force applies to serious martial efforts degrades said efforts, and makes the forum feel quasi-fantastical, rather than purely martial and serious.

I agree with Mr. Hull. Casper's point is valid. The point has been made. This thread has served its purpose and should be closed.

-B.

If you read my posts carefully you will see that I have never asserted that 'chi' exists

In spite of this I feel that it is bigoted to allow Christian swordsmen to post that they believe in the existence of a superphysical power capable of causing miraculous events ( martial or otherwise) while ridiculing Eastern swordsmen who believe in superphysical energy . . . this is hypocricy of the first order.

Let's face it there is no possibility that any of us would insult Jeremiah by saying that beleiving in the concept of the Christian God is asserting that some 'ludicrous energy' exists. . . . yet you do exactly that to our eastern brothers and their spiritual beliefs.

This inconsistency is also a form of hypocricy. . . .. I am not suggesting that any particular beliefs be adopted by anyone. . . . merely that a bit more respect be shown towards Eeastern swordsmen, some of whom beleive in 'chi'

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[Roy Robinson Stewart]

It's called empricism (as in emperical science). An Occidental concept, last I checked. That which cannot be substantiated is dismissed as superstition.

Except if it is a Christian God. . . then it is allowed

In any case, if you want to talk philosophical ism's then you are getting in to hot water, because your scepticism regarding that which cannot be proven, if extrapolated, will show you that nothing other than an awareness of one's own existence can be substantiated, and even that can only be proven to yourself.

You know, Mr. Stewart, I believe that the only person attempting to infuse politics into this discussion is you. This thread, and Casper's post that started it, never had anything to do with politics. It was you whpo introduced that element, not any one else.

well now I disagree I think that the continuous mocking of eastern Martial arts which goes on here is political, or at least racial, in nature, and that we would be better off without it

I assert that this is just another case of hyper-sensitive political-correctness gone mad.

-B.

I assert that the mocking of Eastern martial artists and the concept of 'chi' is ungentlemanly and unneccesary, why not just stop doing it ?

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[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Casper's original valid point, plus my own points, have been totally misunderstood by a certain person illogically making individual & general ad hominem attacks to somehow support his meaningless point that all European fencers are thus "bigots" if they refuse to accept the existence of some unsubstantiated "energy" as the cause of fear in one's foe when a one yells loudly at said foe.

You are the one who is exhibiting misunderstanding: At no time have I asserted that 1) Chi exists, or 2) That any person should adopt a belief in chi.

You are thus grossly misrepresenting my position on the subject

As for ad hominem attacks. . . what about the accusations that 'certain persons' are charlatans? . .. they are ad hominem attacks also , or do you have a special rule for what is said about Asian non members who are not present, and another for ARMA members ?

To say that "chi" is a part of every human action is as meaningless as saying that every event is the "divine intent". If something is defined so broadly that it loses specificity it thus loses meaning.

You are entitled to your position as an atheist,however your argument regarding the wideness of definitions is likely to be inconsistent with your other beliefs . . .. for example it leads to the conclusion that the concept of 'atoms' is meaningless because all matter is made of atoms. . .

We all know from the reactions of beasts as meek as squirrels to as mighty as bears that when a loud surprising noise is made it is shocking to hear and thus often causes fear.
To convolute such a simple thing as that by imposing unsubstantiated notions of mystical energy, some unneeded complication of a metaphysical explanation, is ludicrous.

This is just another assertion of your atheistic position and gets us nowhere . . . . there are many energy forms in the world which cannot be directly observed, the very sound waves which carry the nloise are themselves unobservable directly !

The main point I am making is that the subject of metaphysics and the existence of superphysical powers has intelligent people on both sides of the fence, and to blithely mock those who do not share your beliefs is uncouth and bigoted. . .. . also it is not necessary to indulge in this bigotry just because one trains in a Western tradition.

If you are so keen to assert atheism then perhaps you should also have a go at Jeremiah, who believes in God. .. or better still, 'live and let live' and stop mocking ALL those who do not share your beliefs. . . that would be fairer !






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[Brandon Paul Heslop]

It's called empricism (as in emperical science). An Occidental concept, last I checked. That which cannot be substantiated is dismissed as superstition.

Except if it is a Christian God. . . then it is allowed

In any case, if you want to talk philosophical ism's then you are getting in to hot water, because your scepticism regarding that which cannot be proven, if extrapolated, will show you that nothing other than an awareness of one's own existence can be substantiated, and even that can only be proven to yourself.

You know, Mr. Stewart, I believe that the only person attempting to infuse politics into this discussion is you. This thread, and Casper's post that started it, never had anything to do with politics. It was you whpo introduced that element, not any one else.

well now I disagree I think that the continuous mocking of eastern Martial arts which goes on here is political, or at least racial, in nature, and that we would be better off without it

I assert that this is just another case of hyper-sensitive political-correctness gone mad.

-B.

I assert that the mocking of Eastern martial artists and the concept of 'chi' is ungentlemanly and unneccesary, why not just stop doing it ?

.

The belief that any "supernatural" force intercedes in anything is laughable to me, Mr. Stewart. Beliefs may indeed have some sort of effect on the course of a combat, in as much as the placebo effect "heals" people, say.

Who says I'm a Christian? Did I ever say it? I don't remember anyone else ever directly saying they were, either. You're putting words into people's mouths, introducing elements that were never intended. You can carp on about "logic" all you want to. I see no logic in your argument. Logic does not enter into that which cannot be proven. Logic is the analysis of known facts, and their interpretation in relation to REALITY! Mystical energy forces and logic in the same sentince is a non sequitur. R-E-A-L-I-T-Y.

I echo the sentiment of Mr. Pleasant: "put up, or shut up."

What is being mocked here are those amongst the Asain martial arts community who essentailly sell this pseudo-martial, mystical "snake oil." Their duping of ignorant indiviuals who buy into any bit of hokum being peddled.

You can call me whatever nasty names you want. If your delicate sensiblities are so easily ruffled, perhaps you ought to find another forum.

-B.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Your powers of reading comprehension need to be improved: I did not say that you are a Christian, I merely pointed out the there are members of this forum who are Christian, and that their metaphysical beliefs are politely tolerated, whereas those of Asian martial artists are actively ridiculed

I respect your right to your atheistic position, and I merely request that you show some respect towards those who do not share your beliefs. . . . some of whom are highly intelligent.

As for my own beliefs regarding metaphysics, I have not stated what they are

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[Stacy Clifford]

If someone describes "chi" as some sort of mental/emotional state one can access to enhance his physical performance, then I see that simply as another culture's word for what we modern westerners call "getting in the zone". The fact that mental state affects physical state has long been proven scientifically and I have no problem if easterners want to call it "using their chi".

If someone wants to describe "chi" as some sort of invisible energy that can be projected outward from the body to create a physical affect on another physical object or body, to push it back or stop its motion or make it explode into flames or whatever, then I expect to see proof when I try to demonstrate why fendente means "through the teeth", otherwise I find it ludicrous and worthy of ignoring.

The people that Casper is referring to as charlatans are the ones who would use that second definition and say that they projected some mystical energy that prevented the opponent from throwing the blow. What he's saying actually happened is that his sharp yell triggered an instinctive fear response in the primitive part of his opponent's brain that caused her to freeze. In effect, his opponent stopped herself. This is entirely different from being involuntarily stopped by an outside force. The freeze response is an easily explainable biological phenomenon, and anybody who tries to take advantage of that and say they used mystical energy to create the effect instead is indeed a charlatan. What others are calling "vocal combat" here is simply deliberate manipulation of known and understood instinctive responses, just like making them laugh or ticking them off. The first definition of chi as a mindset may improve your ability to do this, but the second definition is just hooey unless it can be demonstrated against nonbelievers under controlled conditions.

By the way, as both a Christian and someone with a science degree, I do not believe that God interferes with the physical laws of nature. What makes something a miracle is almost always when and where it happens, not how it happens. And bigotry is an irrational emotional state usually backed up by faulty logic. Obeying a religious law that says "Thou shalt bow down before no other Gods but me" is a rational act which may sometimes lead to bigotry, but is not inherently bigoted in and of itself. That's as far as this religious discussion should go.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Your powers of reading comprehension need to be improved: I did not say that you are a Christian, I merely pointed out the there are members of this forum who are Christian, and that their metaphysical beliefs are politely tolerated, whereas those of Asian martial artists are actively ridiculed

I respect your right to your atheistic position, and I merely request that you show some respect towards those who do not share your beliefs. . . . some of whom are highly intelligent.

As for my own beliefs regarding metaphysics, I have not stated what they are

.

And I counter that your powers of reading comprehension need to be improved. When did I say I was an atheist? You were the first one to bring up a belief in Christianity, not anyone else (hence why I mentioned it). It was you who introduced that into the discussion. Now, you're leaping to the conclusion that I'm an atheist. You know what they say about assuming things...

Well, if you simply MUST know, I'm a Deist. But that doesn't mean that I think that the "Prime Mover" intervenes when the going gets tough. Indeed, all the EVIDENCE that exists would suggest otherwise.

-B.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Brandon,

Your posts express atheistic beliefs. that is why I called you an atheist.

How can you beieve in a deity who is a 'prime mover' while maintaining that superphysical powers are a ludicrous concept ? Surely it's a tad difficult for a deity to have created the universe without using some kind of superphysical power ?

By the way, claiming to have reviewed ALL the evidence is a very big call, in fact it is an impossibility.

..

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

By the way, as both a Christian and someone with a science degree, I do not believe that God interferes with the physical laws of nature.

You say that the existence ofsuperphysical chi is refuted because some charlatans stage fake chi power demonstrations, but the obvious fakery involved there is insufficient to establish that superphysical chi does not exist.

Would you say that the existence of God is refuted if some trickster stages a failed 'Christian' miracle? . . . I don't think you would, agreed ?

What i am saying is that you shouldn't mock an entire belief system based only upon the ludicrous antics of a small fringe martial arts cult, particularly when you hold beliefs of a metaphysical nature yourself.

Fair enough ?

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[Michael Navas]

There are great enough holes and room for doubt in Science to accomodate any religious and supernatural belief and still be a Nobel Prize winner.

It is in favour of the sceptic that he does not make it a factor of his desicion-making something that is not empirically testable and proven.

It is in disfavour of the sceptic that he therefore assumes that which falls outside the empirically tested and proven cannot exist. Which would be the equivalent of saying Scence knows it all.

This is why I view the Scientific sceptic as fairly religious in his own way. He views Science as something infallible and perfect, suprisingly similar to a deity, rather than the attempted blueprint of reality it is supposed to be.

He of course acknowledges that Science can improve, but he presumes to know in which directions, and that those cannot possibly be ones which would permit the existence of this and that, for those are in violation of the laws of the universe as we know them. If I'm not very much mistaken, that point has been proven wrong in the past.

In short: Don't let the unexplainable guide or affect your life, but don't bash it out of arrogance either. Though, considering how the human ego depends so strongly upon degrading others for its own well-being, that advice probably has the impact of a feather on a brick wall...

[Gene Tausk]

Casper started this thread with the best of intentions. He only wanted to demonstrate that a good vocalization can be used to overcome an opponent. Casper also stated that if he was not the honest and ethical person he is (right, Casper ?), he could have stated to the gullible that he was using "mystical" forces. Instead, he clearly showed that he was using vocalizations and that sometimes, especially with beginners, a good vocalization can win a fight. Casper, being the intelligent person he is, was able to state this in a few sentences.

However, through no fault of Casper, this thread has once again demonstrated that any attempt to discuss these matters wil go off into lalaland. No surprise there. This thread has gone off-topic and is bantering about in the realms of metaphysics and religion, none of which has any place on these forums.

For the person who complains that we have an "atheistic, scientific" worldview on these matters, well, all I can state is that when it comes to the topic of Renaissance martial arts, we choose to live in reality. For all I care, you can start a website that is devoted to using swords against Bigfoot, demonstrating how the fight manuals actually talk about the Loch Ness Monster, discuss ancient Atlantean martial arts or talk about how you learned kung fu from visitors from Altair VI. However, don't expect us in ARMA to pander and cater to your "worldview" (such as it is).

This thread is now closed. ANYONE attempting to bring it back or open another thread discussing this nonsense will see the thread closed and will be banned from this website. No questions asked.

Sheesh, go out of town for a few weeks, look at what happens.