Escape from Guillotine choke

[Corey Roberts]

Question, what are some good escape options as found in the manuals against the Guillotine choke?

[Stewart Sackett]

From what I've seen in the manuals there are not a lot of chokes, although neck cranks are there. I've seen depictions of what appears to be a guillotine choke but never found fightbook material that covers it explicitly.

It’s my theory that the absence of chokes (or the lack of emphasis on chokes) is due to 2 factors. The first is the existence of the gorget, which would seem likely to nullify chokes. The second is that the majority of blood chokes require the use of both arms & take somewhere between 3 to 30 seconds to induce unconsciousness (assuming they are properly applied). 30 seconds can be a long time in a fight, especially if daggers are involved. The chance of being repeatedly stabbed while my arms are engaged in a choke would seem like a good motivation to focus myself on joint destruction rather than prolonged attempts at strangulation.

Now, there are a number of counters/escapes available when dealing with the guillotine choke but, so far as I know, they do note come from the fightbooks. I’d suggest looking into Judo, BJJ or MMA. Another option would be to ask for advice from the person choking you (assuming the 2 of you are friends).

Edit:

P.S. an ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure. Try not to get choked in the first place. Against the guillotine that’s relatively easy & it’s always much more comfortable.

[Corey Roberts]

I think there is a Guillotine in Durer, at least I remeber finding it in there, and Gene taught the guillotine in his Kampfringen class at the Intl Gath. I was more wondering cuz, it was me putting my brother in it on several occasions but it made me think how would I escape from it in the event of it being done on me, and I didn't know.

[Bill Welch]

Grab a big handful of groin and pull as far as you can . I bet that is way up there on the list.

[carlo arellano]

standing or on the ground?

[Brian Hunt]

Grab a big handful of groin and pull as far as you can . I bet that is way up there on the list.

That's my favorite responce to a standing front Guillotine choke, but if they lean back into it and lift you by the throat, you may not be able to do reach their groin in order to do so.

cheers

Brian Hunt
GFs

[JeffGentry]

Question, what are some good escape options as found in the manuals against the Guillotine choke?

There is an assisted lift slam in Catch wrestling that to me seem's reminisent of some thing's in the manual's, it is simply arm arond the waist the other goes between the guy's leg's and you lift him up and slam him to break the choke simple yet effective, the key to stopping a guillotineis to keep the choker's hip's out away from you.

One basic thing in wrestling is hip's in when you attack, hip's out when you defend, this actualy applies to everything we do.


Jeff

[RayMcCullough]

If standing, reach up to the persons face and grab under his chin/nose/ face area and stretch his head back. You then can grab his leg with your other hand and throw him to the ground. That could be a variation of a throw that is in Fiore and Codex W.

While it was not a counter to the Guillotine, it is applicable. Add the groin shot and it is more effective.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Durchlauffen & Heben (pass through / run through & heave)

Play #34 of Ringer Kunst by Fabian von Auerswald (1539).

Von Auerswald shows it used offensively versus foe -- but you could just as well use it defensively versus foe trying to get you with guillotine choke.

If you do it right, then you keep your neck intact and throw the foe high and drop him onto ground painfully.

Here is a PDF copy of Ringer Kunst -- check out play #34 on page 22 thereof

http://www.umass.edu/renaissance/lord/p ... d_1539.pdf

[Jeffrey Hull]

This plate from Solothuner Fechtbuch is either guillotine choke as defence, or this is defence against that move -- I suppose it is arguable:

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/sf20.JPG

JH

[JeffGentry]

Durchlauffen & Heben (pass through / run through & heave)

Play #34 of Ringer Kunst by Fabian von Auerswald (1539).

Von Auerswald shows it used offensively versus foe -- but you could just as well use it defensively versus foe trying to get you with guillotine choke.

If you do it right, then you keep your neck intact and throw the foe high and drop him onto ground painfully.

Here is a PDF copy of Ringer Kunst -- check out play #34 on page 22 thereof

http://www.umass.edu/renaissance/lord/p ... d_1539.pdf

That was my thought also Jeff, once he is lifted he doesn't have much power to choke.


Jeff G

[Mike Cartier]

well as far as a manual goes for a respinse to a Standing guillotine i can only speak from Meyer. His guillotine is very vaguely described so even it could be considered a early counter to the guillotine attempt (by not getting put into it). After a guillotine there is not much from Meyer on that.

from more modern arts we can see two general responses to it.
mostly you take them to the ground to break thier leverage, being careful not to let them pull guard, but to instead get to a side control position that will negate his guiillotine. this is my preferred method.

if you wish to remain standi ng you have to break the leverage of the choke, in BJJ/MMA they reach up a hand and grasp the opponent above the neck/shoulder to break the leverage, then to try to get back to clinch or instead get them to the ground.

Space is the key i think when standing as its a harder submission to get than the ground version, if you create space they have less leverage.

one of the things about the gullotine is it can tire out the person attempting it so be careful not to give it everything you got for too long, if they don't succumb to it don't force it too long but instead work to get a cleaner more leverage dominant position. i have waited guys out working on a guillotine in BJJ and it can really gas you hard and you can go from feeling in control to being on your back gasping for air easily if you don't carefully measure you energy.

i call the Standing Guillotine the lion killer as thats the position you often see Hercule (Herakles) in when he tames the Nimean Lion.

the brazillians call the rear naked Choke (mate leo) lion killer whereas that ancient greeks called it the ladder.
i wouldn't recommend rear naked choking or guillotining a Lion though.

[Jay Vail]

The type of defense you use against the guillotine depends on the nature of the contest.

If it is a nonsporting, street contest, a punch, palm heel or ridge hand to the groin will break the choke. Seen it done.

[Stewart Sackett]

Surely: a punch, palm heel or ridge hand to the groin could break the choke. But there are few absolutes in combat & reactions (to those techniques designed to use pain to ensure compliance) can vary widely.

Historically, I would think, armour or a leather codpiece might mitigate the effect of such strikes.

From a purely mechanical standpoint there are times when a guillotine choke is applied with the attacker’s hips out but I’ve always found it preferable to bring my hips forward when applying the choke. Hip to hip, there’s little room for punches to the groin.

In a fight I certainly think strikes help to facilitate defense (offense too for that matter) but still believe it is essential to know how to escape from a grapple by grappling.

P.S. the guillotine escapes I’ve been taught are the same as those described above by Mike Cartier. I also prefer the takedown escape to the standing escape but that’s largely because of the sad fact that my stand-up wrestling is, at present, not as developed as my ground game. A shortcoming I’m endeavoring to address.

[david welch]

Pull out your knife and cut through his femoral artery. He will go out before you do, especially if you can tuck or anything else that keeps him from sinking it right off the bat.

If you can't reach his groin, cut through the elbow joint.