About the Windshield Wiper Krumphau...

[Gene Tausk]

I would rather take the advice of one of the historical Fechtmeister than do what modern critics and forumites want done.

As you wish. I choose to live in the present and will continue to try to find a site where that is acceptable. Enjoy your cherished secrets in your dark, little rooms. Without a doubt, you have proved true the rumors of the cancerous insecurities that pervade WMA.

Wrong Mars.

I for one have transcribed & translated an entire Fechtbuch, available for free to anyone, including you:

http://thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm

Plus numerous of my fellows have done considerable works, available for free as well, as may be found in Articles & Essays.

So what have you contributed to fencing studies

Our light fills your darkness.

Jeff's work, BTW, is incredible. I, for one, am very grateful for him taking the time and effort to provide this (at no cost) to the entire HF community.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

Wrong Mars.

I for one have transcribed & translated an entire Fechtbuch, available for free to anyone, including you:

I fail to see the relevance.
If there is, you are free to show it.

We need not justify ourselves any more than the cougar needs justify itself to the wilderness.

Well sure, but if you don't explain why, then you have no right, whatsoever, to criticize others, for criticizing that.

In this thread, explanations have been done. Namely by John Clements, Stacy Clifford and Randall Pleasant (the latter two, having done so in a good manner. I'm not sure of the former).
You on the other hand, have only been expressing you great dislike of non-ARMA HEMA groups.

Now lets see...
This is what I said:

Also, others should figure things out and present their findings, but you don't need to?
Either you're being unclear, or contradictory.

You only countered with your not having to present your findings, or justify yourselves.
So, your saying that you want to learn from others, but not let others learn from you then? (note to people who are not Jeffrey Hull: This is not directed at you. Only at Jeffrey)

Also, I would like to repeat this question:
Could you please define what you mean by unseemly and untimely?
After all, how am I supposed to reply (or choose not to, because of lack of necessity) to something I don't understand?

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Alan Abu Bakr:

I fail to see the relevance.
If there is, you are free to show it.



Well, the relevance would be that he has translated a fechtbuch, and has made it available on this site. I should think that would be obvious. Further, it is readily available to anyone with the drive to look for it on this forum:

http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... =earnestly

Simple.

-B.

[CalebChow]

Wow, my super thread of the month.

JC - Even though I definitely didn't receive the answer I was hoping for, Thank you for your honest reply. I will honor your position in keeping your interpretation to yourself.

Anyway, any more outside info about the krumphau? While I certainly did learn something about personal privacy and all that, anyone else not in ARMA know why the WindshieldWiper would be impractical? Or, if there are any other interpretations I'm unaware of?

The posted videos and pictures on this discussion have been helpful--thanks!

Some more would always be nice. So far I haven't been able to really get a clearcut answer about the krumphau's TRUE POWER (For lack of a less lame term).

The pictures here seems to be difficult to follow...since from all I could tell:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/Krumphau.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/Krumphau1.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/Krumphau2.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercut ... artner.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercut ... rtner1.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercut ... rtner2.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercut ... rtner3.jpg

...Look pretty much like a windshield wiper strike that's just more vertical+forward rather than horizontal/diagonal. Maybe I didn't understand what the windshield wiper even is, but judging by what windshield wipers look like...well, that's what I see. The reason I'm posting this is because I'm not sure at all.

Just an idea, but a quick video of the comparisons between krumphau interpretations would be awesome.
Of course, I understand that some things are not to be disclosed, so I will not expect secrets revealed to me.

[Axel Pettersson]

Hi Alan, give it a rest .

One might think it pretentious not to share research with the rest of the "so called HEMA community (who are they, are we not all the community, or none of us?),in ARMA's case especially perhaps since it is a stated goal of ARMA to educate the public on HEMA. People hare perhaps used to share research with each other in this field, since there rarely is any money in it.

But! This is so when you are an amateur and has only the prestige and respect from others in the same field to lose or gain from what you do (though it can be a valid reason in itself)!

JC is a professional, he does this for a living, and as such he has every right to his professional secrets, just as any professional has. I can easily understand why others in his organization who are not professional HEMA instructors share his opinion on this.

I have seen many versions of the krump, this new interpretation will probably look more similar to some than to others, when I get to see it, that will be cool and I will probably learn something, no more to it.


As to Sam's comment on the edge to flat video, I have never seen rigid edge blocks used by any group either, not when I was in ARMA and not now in GHFS, nor by any other groups I have seen in action.

I think it is up there mainly to show people not involved with HEMA who makes assumptions based on movies and Victorian myths, not serious HEMA practitioners to whom this is a non issue (except those that to 19th century saber where you are suppose to parry with the edge on your unsharpened forte). Again the mission to educate, yes?

In Europe we barely have any SCA organizations to argue with, perhaps we simply don't understand that this is an issue in the US.



Hope to see you in Uppsala this spring Alan, they are having an event there.

[John_Clements]

John, I apologize if I explained it poorly.

I give you The Krumphau as I practice it.

No need to apologize. I saw no problem with the question. I hope the answer was clear. There many reasons we keep certain key things to ourselves.

We give away more educational material here than all other sources combined. We have pioneered much in this subject --and did so while other groups sat on their chairs for decades doing virtually nothing to advance real martial skills. But in the last 5 years seems everyone is now an "expert" of the historical source methods ---all the while showing no evidence of their past study efforts and still using almost the very same inept methods and attitudes that succeeded in keeping them stagnant for so long. Often the only real difference now is that they quote the source literature in the process. Funny that.

JC

[Aaron Kavli]

I think it might also help to realize that ARMA is not a blindly homogenous group. Within ARMA there are still discussions and debates over a variety of things. Most are generally scholarly.

Along the lines of this thread, not everyone in ARMA is 100% on board with the new Krumphau. That is the great thing about ARMA's methodology--it encourages and teaches members to persue both the athletic and academic aspects of the art.

[Mars Healey]

John, I apologize if I explained it poorly.

I give you The Krumphau as I practice it.

No need to apologize. I saw no problem with the question. I hope the answer was clear. There many reasons we keep certain key things to ourselves.

JC

John,

Looking at the krump in the link I gave, do you see problems with it's execution? You don't have to be specific, of course, but I would appreciate a critique from you, or from others here as well.

[Will Adamson]

At our recent International Event, John ended a presentation on a new concept by saying, "have I convinced you?" He did not go the, "this is how we're doing it" route. I think this spoke volumes about the research and debate process within ARMA.

[Ben Strickling]

Looking at the krump in the link I gave, do you see problems with it's execution? You don't have to be specific, of course, but I would appreciate a critique from you, or from others here as well.

Hi Mars,

Perhaps I can offer some general advice that you might find helpful. First, be careful about attacking only at your opponent's sword. Whenever possible your primary target should be your opponent's body, because when you aim primarily at the sword, it's easy for your opponent to feint, leaving you to miss completely (see the Ringeck, Goliath, Lew, etc. sections on Durchwechseln for examples of this). Note that Ringeck's first and primary description of the Krumphau is an attack to the hand, and that an attack against the blade is conditional: "If you want to weaken the masters..." I know you were practicing a specific technique and that an attack against a partner's hand is hard to do in practice, but if you think about the krump as an attack at your opponent's upper right opening, you'll find it becomes much more martial. My advice: don't cross your arms so much (some places in the text is actualls says with "crossed hands" not just "crossed arms") and aim your strike less perpendicular to your own body. You might find that even when aiming toward your opponent's hand or right shoulder, it only takes a slight change in angle to ward off your opponent's blow, if you decide to do so.

Second, when practicing any technique, I would recommend following up. Don't just end in a bind on the sword, but complete the technique as the text suggests by winding to thrust or by uncrossing the hands to strike with the short edge. It's good to get into the habit of following up in practice so your body will remember to do it in when not in practice (hypothetically speaking, of course ).

Hope you find this helpful.

Ben Strickling
GFS
Raleigh, NC

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Mars,

It is a bit of an intellectual property rights issue. Some specific interpretations (the krump in this instance) were the result of considerable research and as such considered proprietary the same way a few things are reserved in other arts (not just martial ones). Think of how a potter might have a certain glaze or a painter has a certain paint formula s/he does not typically reveal, even if they do otherwise readily teach painting and pottery to the public. There is plenty of other publicly available material from ARMA authors in both book and free form for the larger WMA community to study and consider if they so choose to do. Think of the very large amount that is out there rather than the small amount that isn't.

[Mars Healey]

Ben,

Thanks for your analysis. Yes, the true target is the hands or forearm if they are within range. And the follow-up pop to the neck or head is our standard move. You are right that in drills and practice, it's not practical to be hitting your partners hands. The playdate would be over very soon.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

Well, the relevance would be that he has translated a fechtbuch

Ehm... he said that, already.

Hi Alan, give it a rest .

I already have, which you would see if you read my posts a bit more closely.

Hope to see you in Uppsala this spring Alan, they are having an event there.

Sounds interesting

We have pioneered much in this subject --and did so while other groups sat on their chairs for decades doing virtually nothing to advance real martial skills.

Well, you guys did have quite a head start, didn't you?

But in the last 5 years seems everyone is now an "expert" of the historical source methods

Oh? Name one person, who has claimed to be an expert.
(Also, you can learn a lot in five years. Especially since a lot more material has been made available these last years)

all the while showing no evidence of their past study efforts and still using almost the very same inept methods and attitudes that succeeded in keeping them stagnant for so long.

I would like to ask you, how you know this. How much contact do you have, with outside groups? How well do you know their skill?

[Stacy Clifford]

Well, you guys did have quite a head start, didn't you?

John Clements did have a substantial head start on most of them, yes. Other members here can cite more specific examples than I can, but some of those organizations were started not long after ours was, and yet they are still doing things we stopped doing years ago, or have recently changed their stance and claimed they've been doing it that way all along. I defer to Randall and Jeffrey in particular, and of course John, for specific incidences of this.

Oh? Name one person, who has claimed to be an expert.
(Also, you can learn a lot in five years. Especially since a lot more material has been made available these last years)

Just for starters, do a search for the name Martinez on this forum and read about some of his claims regarding longsword expertise, frequently cited with links. And yes, of course you can learn a lot in five years, many of us have, but not one of us is out there claiming titles like Grand Master, as Christian Tobler is in a rather deceptive manner. Search recent threads for that name too.

I would like to ask you, how you know this. How much contact do you have, with outside groups? How well do you know their skill?

While we certainly prefer our own interpretations and training methods, that doesn't mean we're above investigating others' ideas. I know that Randall has been to seminars held by Brian Price and Tom Leoni in the last couple of years, and he and I both have attended Bob Charron's seminars before, although it was about five years ago. I compared notes recently with another member (wish I could recall who) who had been to one of Bob's more recent seminars and got the impression that his approach and interpretation had changed since I last saw it, and from the description, apparently for the worse. (Five years ago at least he had a fair amount of good material worth learning.) John of course has met most of these people at one time or another and corresponded with them, and I'll have to leave it to others to share their own stories of contact with other groups. I should also mention that we frequently buy the books written by these same folks to see what they are doing, because even if we find little of value in their interpretation, you still never know, and we do give them credit for making the effort to try, whatever the result.

Point is, ARMA members are not barred from seeing what other researchers are releasing to the public, and by the same token they are not barred from our public events and publications either. Our encounters with outside groups may not always be frequent, but we are not by any means isolationist.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

or have recently changed their stance and claimed they've been doing it that way all along.

...and of that, I wanted examples.

I defer to Randall and Jeffrey in particular, and of course John, for specific incidences of this.

Yes, and it was specific incidences, that I was asking for.

Just for starters, do a search for the name Martinez on this forum and read about some of his claims regarding longsword expertise, frequently cited with links.

I admit that they seem to missuse the title, but...
I found this, this and this.
Does anyone have a link to somewhere were he/they actually claim to be masters of the art of longsword?

claiming titles like Grand Master, as Christian Tobler is in a rather deceptive manner.

!?
Well, that's one, I guess (though I haven't searched much, so I'm not 100% sure)

I know that Randall has been to seminars held by Brian Price and Tom Leoni in the last couple of years

and he and I both have attended Bob Charron's seminars before

Okay, but that's only three, which makes them a rather tiny portion, of all the HEMA groups out there.
(I also note that all of them are americans)