fighting w 2 swords

[david a goodman]

aside from dagger/rappier or rapier/buckler, is there any info or technique for 2-handed fighting? probly not possibl w longsword, was thinking of somthng more along the lines of gladius sized etc. any info or comments will b appreciated. and any helpful hints on solo training will be welcome.
dave

[Ken McKenzie]

Not really my field, but there are records of using two rapiers at once. See Giacomo Di Grassi's Ragione Di Adoprar Sicuramente L'arme p86 or perhaps more easily google "case of rapiers". Hope this helps.

[Stacy Clifford]

Yes, Di Grassi does give some instruction on fighting with two cut and thrust swords, but the first piece of advice he gives you in that section is don't even try this if you can't fight equally well with either hand singly. Learn to fight well with your strong hand first (and an off hand dagger), then practice that same skill with the sword in your off hand, then try using swords in both hands. I've been studying Di Grassi recently myself and I am still working through this process. I expect I have a ways to go yet before I can meet Di Grassi's standard.

[david a goodman]

stacy, ken, thanx for the feedbak. my main concern was if this was just somthng that hollywood made up

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Well, the two-sword techniques you see in the movies are entirely made-up Hollywood stuff. They bear little (if any) resemblance to the practical techniques taught in the various Italian rapier schools for the use of two long-bladed swords--di Grassi was not the only master who taught this style, as there are several others (principally masters of the Bolognese style like Marozzo and Manciolino) who included two-sword plays in their manuals.

There's been a discussion about this subject several times before on this forum, and I've tried summarizing them here and here. Maybe it could be worth your while to take a peek at them.

[Sal Bertucci]

I've never studied sword&dagger, but I have looked at sword&buckler, but I had a question. I was sparring with S&D and since I didn't know any correct stances I used S&B stances. Mainly Wrath and the one where you hold the sword under your buckler arm. I noticed that I had a lot of success. So my question is: Is this a sound theory, or was this "something that happened to work b/c the people I was sparring weren't vary good?"

[david a goodman]

lafayette,
that was great, just what i was looking for. guess the 2-weapon scenario would b only (or mostly) used w rapiers or the ever popular rapier/dagger combo. and thanx to everyone who responded, will just keep working on longswrd til ive actuly got a partner to try the rapier(s) with.
dave

[Robert Bertram]

Is there a website with Di Grassi's manuel on it? I'd like to read it.

[Audra Grapes]

Robert, this is what is available from the ARMA website:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManua ... grassi.htm

[Ken McKenzie]

Or, if your italian is not so great, you go to http://www.academiadellaspada.com/libra ... ssi-EN.pdf and look at pages 107-117

[Craig Peters]

I've never studied sword&dagger, but I have looked at sword&buckler, but I had a question. I was sparring with S&D and since I didn't know any correct stances I used S&B stances. Mainly Wrath and the one where you hold the sword under your buckler arm. I noticed that I had a lot of success. So my question is: Is this a sound theory, or was this "something that happened to work b/c the people I was sparring weren't vary good?"

It's probably a bit of both. You'll discover when you start looking at various manuals from across different centuries that there are only so many guards. When you think about it, this makes sense, because there's only so many ways to use a sword. And while some masters seemed to have more guards named and listed than others, most if not all of these guards are some sort of variants on Liechtenauer's basic four plus the tail guard. So it's natural that sword and buckler wards will function for sword and dagger.

That having been said, sparring inexperienced people makes a significant difference too. You can often get away with things against untrained opponents that will not work against someone with more skill. And so I'd suggest that this was also a contributing factor too.

Try keeping your sword and dagger paired together, and using one to parry an attack while counterattacking with the other.

[Nathan Dexter]

Keep in mind that there are no medeival techniques for 2 swords. this didn't come about untill the rennaisance. I'm guessing that this happened because of swords becoming slightly smaller and lighter.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

I believe it's not so much about the swords--many of them remained essentially the same except for the addition of complex hilts, anyway--as the techniques designed for their use. Fighting with two long swords would be suicide in a system that relies heavily on broad shearing cuts, because it'd be hard to keep the arms from getting tangled up with each other in the process of throwing the cuts. When the system relies almost entirely on thrusts and tight cuts from the wrist, however, it'd be easier to keep the arms apart from each other and to remember which sword is doing what. Or at least that's what I found in my attempts at studying two-sword fighting.

Di Grassi's manual is also available here: http://www.musketeer.org/manuals/diGrassi/contents.htm , and his specific section on two swords is at http://www.musketeer.org/manuals/diGras ... ss2.htm#18