Striking

[Stephen Zeringue]

in WMA is there anything that is more striking based(besides boxing) than wrestling based? if so could anyone please tell me where to find resources on it?

[Grant Hall]

Hey Stephen, if you're after a WMA that strikes that isn't boxing then I'm assuming you're looking for something that employs lots of kicks, in which case I'd suggest Savate a French Martial Art that's been around since atleast the 1700's.

Also there are several kicks in Kampfringen, tho I'm affraid I'm not the man to ask for more info on that, then there is Modernday Pankration which is an attempt to restore Ancient Greek Pagration, unfortunately the guy who started it thought it would be best to study eastern arts in order to include the best techniques from around the world. Luckily however some more historically minded individuals are stripping it of anything not found in orignal source material and restoring it as it should be. They have a great kick called the Gastrizion which is similar to a front kick but utilizes the heel of the foot, it generates upto 2000psi of force making it one of the most powerful kicks in any Martial Art in the world.

Anyway I hope this helps... but yeah I think Savate might be what you're looking for it is similar to Tae Kwon Do and some forms of Kung Fu and other Eastern Martial arts, but despite what some idiots will tell you it is entirely European in creation.

Cheers!

[Stephen Zeringue]

ok thanks, do you know anyone who teaches savate or are there any books on it?

[Stewart Sackett]

in WMA is there anything that is more striking based(besides boxing) than wrestling based?

Do you mind if I ask why you're asking? I personally really like grappling because I'm a wimp & don't like getting repeatedly hit in the head. Despite my biases I accept that there are people who dislike being thrown to the ground & then crushed for a prolonged period & so may not care for grappling. But you have quite a few things you're looking for: a WMA, not grappling or not focused on grappling, focused on unarmed striking, & not Boxing. I'd be interested to hear what attracts you to those particular criteria.

EDIT: Savate seems hard to find outside of France but looks very cool. Boxing hands (which is to say good punching) & kicks like Tae Kwon Do (which make a lot more sense if you put boots on instead of using bare feet).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadTkRxeE5A

[Stephen Zeringue]

Well i did more research into savate and i am less interested now because my legs loose flexibilty even after i stretch. anyway i was just curious about it. but isn't in good to know some striking even if someone is more of a wrestler.

[Stephen Zeringue]

i have also heard that in the 50s ore something that karate students sparred with boxers and they could only stand back and kick (because of the boxers handwork) any thoughts about that?

[Grant Hall]

i have also heard that in the 50s ore something that karate students sparred with boxers and they could only stand back and kick (because of the boxers handwork) any thoughts about that?

Sure, a good boxer can hold his own against any kicking art, I think it was Bruce Lee that said (Paraphrasing) "A good puncher will always beat a good kicker".

The thing that Boxers really have to watch out for is leg kicks, if you go on youtube you'll find lots of videos of Boxers vs Muay Thai in which the Boxers get chopped down aain and again, however there are also videos that show what happens to kcikers when the Boxer learns to counter the Leg Kicks.

You must realize that the whole concept of Kicks having more reach than punches is highly exagerated, if you stand in your basic fighting stance and deliver a kick off the front foot, then return to stance and deliver a jab off the front foot with a small front foot step you'll notice your reach is about the same. Now return to your fighting stance and deliver a roundhouse kicking with your back foot, measure the distance, now return to your stance, this time instead of kicking with the back leg step forward with it and punch with your right hand, you'll be surprised to find that doing this actually allows you to reach further than your roundhouse (especially if you kick with your shin).

That being said, another thing that people don't realize is that a punch actually generates more Force than MOST kicks, infact to date I've only found 1 kick that can match a Punch (The Gastrizion which delivers 2000psi) and one knee (the Muay Thai knee from clinch, which delivers 2500psi), compared to a strong right cross that can generate 2000psi one starts to wonder why you would bother sacrificing speed and balance to deliver a kick when you can keep both feet planted and throw twice as many punches.

If you want my honest suggestion it would be, Learn the Gastrizion, Learn the Muay Thai Knee from Clinche, then learn to bloack and counter leg strikes, once you've done that you've got kicking covered, now learn boxing and you'll be one of the best strikers in the world (this imples training as hard as the best fighters in the world).

I hope some of this helps.

Cheers!

PS: Oh one last thing, NEVER perform jumping kicks, they are some of the weakest kicks you can perform, this is because once you leave the ground you can not brace yourself off of it, so when you hit your target physics kicks in and you get that whole "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction thing" (Which is true for standing kicks too, but in the latter case you can help negate it by pushing off of the ground which then has the equal and opposite reaction of pressing you forward).

Cheers again!

[Mike Cartier]

ok a couple of quick comments based upon my own experiences.
i have done just about every martial art mentioned on this thread at one time or another.


so first comment is on Boxers vs kickers.

Muay thai tends to trump the boxers, but only where the skill levels allow it, if you suck at Muay Thai and the boxer is good you are done.
Give a good boxer some muay thai exprience and youalso have another problem.

muay thai fighters use more tools thats all, boxers sre not used to getting kicked and kneed.


a not on Savate, its excellent for boot fighting and in fact was built around the use of shoes.

For kicking arts i like Muay thai a for its practicality, (kicks are used more to set up other techniques than to get a one shot knock out)
Savate which has good self defense elements and generally good boxing hands. tae kwon Do usually is useless IMHO unless you are doing the traditional stuff which has all the silliness in modern TKD not in it. generally speaking flashy kicking styles stink and practical ones are great, just like strikeing with the hands.

i do MMA with a buddy who is a 3rd dan in traditional TKD and he will kick your stinking head off if you give him any space, but the only reason he can do that is he is a great boxer and a very good wrestler and Jiujitsu guy. But he does not do point fighting TKD but the harder traditional style which is much more like karate.

there is no need to choose between striking or grappling a good fighter does both, its all part of fighting. good grapplers nullify strikers by grappling and smothering thier ability to strike, good strikers learn grappling to be able to stop a grappler and punish him when his grappling attempt fails.

on finding savate instructors and books and videos

Salem Asli has a savate tape series which is very good , most jeet Kune Do schools have a small element of savate and if you are lucky you will have a teacher who is certified in it. Check out the USA savate federation and http://www.savateaustralia.com/ maintained by craig gemeiner (a former ARMA member i beleive)


hope that helps

[Stacy Clifford]

Check out the USA savate federation and http://www.savateaustralia.com/ maintained by craig gemeiner (a former ARMA member i beleive)

Yeah, Craig visited Houston way back in 2000 right when I had just joined and fought an early version of the prize playing, although things were a bit different back then. Really nice guy and incredibly good fighter, one of the only people you'll ever see who's as fast and shifty as JC. It's too bad he drifted off and didn't stick with us. I distinctly remember one of his padded swords turning into a boomerang that night.

[Stewart Sackett]

It's the "besides boxing" that has me curious.

Boxing is simply the best thing around if you want to learn how to hit people with your arms.

I can understand an aesthetic interest in kicks making someone prefer Savate or another kicking focused art but if the OP isn't particularly attracted to kicks, then what's wrong with boxing?

[Grant Hall]

It's the "besides boxing" that has me curious.

Boxing is simply the best thing around if you want to learn how to hit people with your arms.

I can understand an aesthetic interest in kicks making someone prefer Savate or another kicking focused art but if the OP isn't particularly attracted to kicks, then what's wrong with boxing?

Indeed, Boxing despite its obvious flaws (No defense against kicks) is one of the most effective Striking Arts around. I can't count how many times I've heard people bag Boxing then in the same breath praise an Art like Muay Thai, never realizing that when the Thai Boxers discovered Western Boxing they threw out their old hand strikes and used Boxing instead.

If someone trained in Boxing learnt kicking defense they really wouldn't need to learn any other strike to be a highly effective striker (ofcourse its always good to learn kicking, grappeling, and ground work).

But anyways I'll say it again, if you want a Western Striking Art compareable to those of the East then Savate is as good as you'll get. Pangration includes strikes but is more of a Complete Fighting system, but still I can't praise the Gratizion enough it is one of the most effect kicks in any Art.

Hope this Helps!

Cheers!

[Jaron Bernstein]

in WMA is there anything that is more striking based(besides boxing) than wrestling based? if so could anyone please tell me where to find resources on it?

Nicholas Petter and Georg Paschen have a lot of explicitely described fisticuffs and some kicking in them. The main thing about WMA (by my current understanding at least) is that it is a holistic enterprise. You use stiking, joint locks, throws in an integrated manner where one sets up the other. Then add weapons to that mix. The hand strike is the same with or without a dagger. The throw is the same with or without a sword. Don't think in pure striking or grappling terms. When you start looking at "pure" grappling, throwing or striking, you are stepping away from the historical WMA (as I understand it at least).

You can extract another good lesson from watching the manner in which muay thai fighters, western boxers, MMA fighters or judoka train. There is fitness, athleticism and emphasis on sparring/fighting with intent to make it work against a resisting opponent.

[Stephen Zeringue]

old boxing is different from modern boxing from what i understand at least. so i was wondering if it was called something else and how is it different?

[Stewart Sackett]

old boxing is different from modern boxing from what i understand at least. so i was wondering if it was called something else and how is it different?

As I understand it,The major differences between old pugilism & modern boxing were:

Before the Marquis of Queensbury rules boxers didn't wear gloves except in training. In some contests they were allowed to clinch & continue to fight (I imagine this was like a combination of boxing & Greco-Roman wrestling).

The absence of gloves made body blows sharper but made heavy blows to the head more likely to damage the hands. This led to different punching strategies (vertical fist strikes & blows more likely to cut but less likely to cause an instant KO).

Without gloves it's much harder to cover up to defend punches. Historically boxers fought with their arms more extended then they do today so that when an opponent stepped in they could hold them at bay & strike. It's interesting to note that, in modern MMA, fighters deal with the reduced protection of smaller gloves mostly by raising their hands & spending less time "in the pocket"; prefering to fight from the outside or from an attatched position. Some modern fighters do use stances similar to pre-queensbury boxers though; Josh Koscheck is an example of this.

Finally: I've heard it said that early boxers were unfamiliar with the Jab.

P.S. I'm no expert in this & there are other threads that discuss this issue in depth. So, it would be worth looking around the forum at the other information that's already here.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jeffrey Hull also has this very good article:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/getting-punchy.html