Dog Brothers Gathering-August 10th in LA

[Grant Hall]

I have to say that I don't see much use in this at all, as far as Martial Arts go I consider Kali as one of the worst as it has a always go forawrd mentality in its fighting that results in both opponents getting hit multiple times.

There is little to no voiding, parrying or blocking, in every single Kali fight I've seen it amounts to hit for hit til someone quits.

I don't think it builds martial spirit at all, aleast not the martial spirit indicative of one who fights with bladed weapons. Sacrificing one's own body in order to inflict pain and/or damage on an opponent shows no sound martial principles. Would you stand there and let someone stab you just so that you could stab them too? It is ludicrous, and in my honest opinion has little to no right calling itself an art, I wouldn't even call it martial as it would have little benefit pertaining to war.

All that being said, Katherine I do see some merit in you sparing against these guys as it will allow you to further develop your distance and timing, and teach you how to deal with aggressive opponents who rush at you unrelenting, the only probelm being that after you skillfully dispose of your opponent in what would be a devestatingly blow that would no doubt kill or disable an opponent if you were using a blade, your opponent will show no regard for your well placed blow and simply continue to rush against you, thus forcing you into playing the same pointless game of "stick fighting".

Anyways, goodluck I hope you find something of merit in the whole ordeal!

Cheers!

[KatherineJohnson]

I have to say that I don't see much use in this at all, as far as Martial Arts go I consider Kali as one of the worst as it has a always go forawrd mentality in its fighting that results in both opponents getting hit multiple times.

I really hate the WEKAF style where everyone is armored to the core, but this (Dog Brothers Style) takes serious guts. it's a real fight, with real sticks. As an aside some Kali practitioners do see their sticks as training weapons as blades and use a "one hit ends fight" mentality.

I don't think it builds martial spirit at all, aleast not the martial spirit indicative of one who fights with bladed weapons.

They are one in the same, not in the sense that one should take a hit to give a hit, but in having a willingness to engage an opponent actively seeking to do you real physical harm while you seek to do them the same and avoidharm yourself, no matter the tool.

To quote the Modern Army Combatives website (MAC being partially created by ARMAteer Matt Larsen)

http://moderncombatives.org/home.html

the defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy. We do not win wars because we are better at hand-to-hand combat than the enemy, we do however win wars because of the things it takes to be a good hand-to-hand fighter. Any training plan that does not serve to build this fundamental aggressiveness is actually counter productive. Confidence comes from competence. It is not enough to simply tell soldiers to be aggressive; they must have a faith in their abilities built through hard and arduous training and know that they are going to win; so that when that weapon does malfunction three feet from the bad guy, they will instinctively attack.

[Stewart Sackett]

game of "stick fighting"

People have been fighting with sticks longer then they have been fighting with swords & there are numerous European traditions of stick & staff fighting.

If you look at the dog brothers as a group of people playing with sticks that they pretend are swords then what they're doing is silly. The thing is: the dog brothers have always been very clear that what they do is fight with sticks. The sticks are sticks they don't represent anything but what they are. The level of pretend is therefore less then what's present when we fight with wasters, so I think it would be only fair to say that their "game of stick fighting" is more closely related to stickfighting then our games of swordfighting are to actual swordfighting.

[KatherineJohnson]

If you look at the dog brothers as a group of people playing with sticks that they pretend are swords then what they're doing is silly..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-iGAJhZ6c

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

I wasn't going to post anything on this thread, but I have been thinking about it an awful lot.

Kat, greetings. I have never met you, being a relative new guy (1 1/2 years in) but I did watch your highlights video that you posted, I look forward to eventually meeting you and getting some good scrapping in. I have a few questions for you though: You say that you have been out of ARMA for a while, I don't know how long, but my guess is at least 4 years. If you were to lay off of Muay Thai training for 4 years and then get back in, but jumped right into a kick boxing ring, do you think that you could effectively recall your training? That got a bit hard to follow, do you think that you can effectively recall and apply your ARMA/WMA fighting skill in a situation that you have not used it in for years? I tend to think that might be a little difficult.

I also would ask how you think the two will match, you said in a previous post that you would keep in the back of your mind that the fight would be over if you were using a sword, well, that changes the way you would fight. Fighting with sticks is one thing, fighting with swords is another. The Dog Brothers admit that in the intro video. If one were to go into the fight thinking that it bears similarity, that could have some dangerous results.

Now, I am not trying to change your mind, from what I gather that would be a very hard thing to do. I wish you the best as you test your martial mindedness (though it seems you don't need to test it), but I hope that you don't try and apply fighting with swords to fighting with sticks.


Ken, I thought you made a decent point with the comparison. I don't think you were being negative and certainly did not deserve a sarcastic response.

Best of luck.

-Jeremiah (GFS)

[KatherineJohnson]

Kat, greetings. I have never met you, being a relative new guy (1 1/2 years in) but I did watch your highlights video that you posted, I look forward to eventually meeting you and getting some good scrapping in. I have a few questions for you though: You say that you have been out of ARMA for a while, I don't know how long, but my guess is at least 4 years.

About 3 years, I just looked at the date on my Xray where my finger was broken from a waster and it was abvout 3 years ago. That plus Jake moving put me out for a while but jake held a gathering about maybe 2 years ago that I attended and I found that while I was rusty at first it all came back rather quickly. I've already started solo training with my weapon.

If you were to lay off of Muay Thai training for 4 years and then get back in, but jumped right into a kick boxing ring, do you think that you could effectively recall your training?

It's so driven into me at this point that it's just the way my body moves, i've taken long breaks here and there and I often find that I come back just as technically sound, my cardio isn't as good but the knowledge is there. I am also of the opinion that most of what I know is so drilled into me that it's instinctual at this point. When you train something seriously for a very long time you don't forget that knowledge easy, it's like riding a bike.

That got a bit hard to follow, do you think that you can effectively recall and apply your ARMA/WMA fighting skill in a situation that you have not used it in for years? I tend to think that might be a little difficult.

I have tools and training partners, 2 months training will get me to maybe 75% of where I used to be with a weapon. 75% of where I used to be with a weapon is 100% to much for most people Plus there will be kicking, grappling, clinching, kneeing, elbowing. It's kali tudo, anything goes. I have many tools available at my disposal, not just a stick.

I also would ask how you think the two will match, you said in a previous post that you would keep in the back of your mind that the fight would be over if you were using a sword, well, that changes the way you would fight. Fighting with sticks is one thing, fighting with swords is another. The Dog Brothers admit that in the intro video. If one were to go into the fight thinking that it bears similarity, that could have some dangerous results.

We'll just have to wait and see. I mean no disrespect to my opponents but in muay thai I have generally walked all over everyone that has been put on the ring with me using the same principals of timing, footwork, and distance that it takes to fight with weapons. Anyways, I know how to adapt on the fly. I know how to hit and avoid being hit, it's just a matter of appying it with different tools, which is not so difficult.

Now, I am not trying to change your mind, from what I gather that would be a very hard thing to do. I wish you the best as you test your martial mindedness (though it seems you don't need to test it), but I hope that you don't try and apply fighting with swords to fighting with sticks.
(GFS)

Well it's this girls first rodeo outside of some kali training, I've played with her toys before, it wont be all new for me. Maybe a few hits will knock some "ring rust" as we call it off and we'll see how it goes

This will be the highlight of my year.

[Stewart Sackett]

This will be the highlight of my year.

Speaking of highlights, it would be great to see some video of how this goes. Please do let us know if you get any weapon sparring up on youtube & again: good luck.

[KatherineJohnson]

I'm pretty sure these eveents are heavily video'd so there will almost certainly be video posted after the fact.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I'm pretty sure these eveents are heavily video'd so there will almost certainly be video posted after the fact.

Jeff Gentry of the Columbus study groups speaks very highly of you. Good luck!

[Grant Hall]

game of "stick fighting"

People have been fighting with sticks longer then they have been fighting with swords & there are numerous European traditions of stick & staff fighting.

You misunderstand me, I don't consider fighting with a stick to be a silly game, I consider Kali to be a game. I don't consider it a valid martial art. It doesn't teach* defense techniques like Voiding, Blocking or Parrying, and thus it basically amounts to hitting the other guy as hard and fast as you can whilst he hits you as hard and fast as he can.

Another reason I consider it invalid is because the sticks they use are not great for killing, if you used Trolly poles (the poles in the handles of shopping trolleys) and tried what these guuys do you'd be hospitalised in no time, so how is there "art" a valid form of self defense.

A decent boxer could not only take on these guys but he would decimate them once he closed range. The videos that Dog Brothers present show clearly that you can take repeditive hits from their sticks with little real damage.

As an example (And I'll state here that I hate this "art" too) of a Stick Fighting system that includes voiding, blocking and parrying (even if it has been turned into basically a dance) take a look a La Canne. Even thou I think it is a sport rather than a Martial Art it aleast teaches you to avoid being hit rather than taking the blow and delivering one in return.

Finally on Kali, you could give any man with a strong heart two sticks and put him in a ring with a seasoned Kali fighter and the result will be the same as if it were two amateurs or two experts, just a swing fest of sticks.

Infact there is a crappy show on Cabel where two guys go to the Philipines and learn Kali for Five days then they spar full contact (like Dog Brothers) against some of the Phillipino Marine's best Kali fighters. The fight is a joke and one of the White guys wins the fight (in my honest opinion the other white guy should have won too, he atleast showed evasive ability).

Can you imagine some kid picking up a waster and going toe to toe with some of ARMA's best (and ARMA doesn't claim to be a master level like some Kail practioners) the kid would get annihilated even if he did mange a few lucky shots.

So yeah, I think Stick Figthing is perfectly valid and a great martial arts, I think that the Quarter Staff is one of the best weapons ever and I think highly of Master Silver. However I stand firm in my belief that Kali is a joke.

Now that's not to say that sparring in Dog Brothers doesn't take balls, I just think it doesnt take skill.

[KatherineJohnson]

[quote="Grant Hall
A decent boxer could not only take on these guys but he would decimate them once he closed range. The videos that Dog Brothers present show clearly that you can take repeditive hits from their sticks with little real damage.[/quote]

Just speaking for me personally, I am a pretty damn good boxer, i've held my own with women who had taken gold in theworld games so perhaps I'll put that to the test

[Grant Hall]

[quote="Grant Hall
A decent boxer could not only take on these guys but he would decimate them once he closed range. The videos that Dog Brothers present show clearly that you can take repeditive hits from their sticks with little real damage.

Just speaking for me personally, I am a pretty damn good boxer, i've held my own with women who had taken gold in theworld games so perhaps I'll put that to the test [/quote]

Please do, and then post videos of your opponents humiliation.

As long as you can take the pain of being hit by the stick as you close (Try not to get hit, but my guess is you might take one or two shots, though your ARMA training will help you with your timing I'm sure) then close in and let your hands go, I don't know how good those helmets are but I'd think a punch to the face would still rattle them, and with them swinging wild with their stick they'll have no defense.

Anyway, have fun, and show em what real fighting is please.

[Stewart Sackett]

You misunderstand me, I don't consider fighting with a stick to be a silly game, I consider Kali to be a game.

Ah, sorry. I totally misread you.

It makes a lot more sense to criticize a style of stick fighting then it does to criticise the stick in general as a weapon. I don't know much about kali, so I can't comment there.

I am curious about your opinion of La Canne. I looked it up on youtube and what I saw all looked good, for about 14 seconds and then someone would start twirling for some reason. I was under the impression that la canne was still taught, when it is taught, along with savate (which tends to be fairly pragmatic), so I was surprised to find so few combative examples of it.

I was wondering if you, or anyone, could tell me: Is the art still practiced combatively or is it purely a dance form now? Are their any objections to historical la canne or are criticisms entirely focused on the choreographed nature of the art today?

[Grant Hall]

You misunderstand me, I don't consider fighting with a stick to be a silly game, I consider Kali to be a game.

Ah, sorry. I totally misread you.

It makes a lot more sense to criticize a style of stick fighting then it does to criticise the stick in general as a weapon. I don't know much about kali, so I can't comment there.

Yeah, stick fighting is a valid art, unfortunately most Stick Fighting that is still done today has become very sportified, which brings me to your next question.

I am curious about your opinion of La Canne. I looked it up on youtube and what I saw all looked good, for about 14 seconds and then someone would start twirling for some reason. I was under the impression that la canne was still taught, when it is taught, along with savate (which tends to be fairly pragmatic), so I was surprised to find so few combative examples of it.

I think me and you have pretty much the same opinion of La Canne, it employs everything that is needed for a real combat art, but then it is watered down, and turned into a sport or a dance even. It is a shame as far as combat goes but it can be entertaining to watch.

I was wondering if you, or anyone, could tell me: Is the art still practiced combatively or is it purely a dance form now? Are their any objections to historical la canne or are criticisms entirely focused on the choreographed nature of the art today?

I believe it is still taught as a combat form, one thing I like about Savate is that it is seperated into 3 catergories, basically you have full on combat with all the dirty tricks, then you have full on combat without the dirty tricks and then you have sport Savate which is the most well known. Im fairly certain that French Stick Fighting is also catergorized in a similar fashion.

What is REALLY interesting is that many Longsword techniques have survived to today through Italian and French Stick Fighting, as well as Portugese Stick Fighting. For some examples (though it is becoming more dificult to find good videos) look up Great-Stick Fighting. Great Stick is the name given to the long five foot stick by Alfred Hutton in the late 1800's when he was trying to revive older arts. he comments that Great Stick survived in both the Italian and French Armies of the times. I find it fascinating that there have always been men and women trying to keep the ancient European Arts alive, and even more fascinating that bits and pieces have actual survived to today, filtering down trhough the cracks of various sports and combat arts.

For an example of Great Stick's relation to longsword, some guards which survived relatively entacted are the Plough, Wrath, Fool, Hanging Point, and Long Point.

Here's a Video of some guys praticing Alfred Hutton's Great Stick(remember Hutton didn't make this stuff up it had survived to his day and was still used by the military).

You'd almost swear they were fencing with longswords wouldn't you.

Anyway, more later.

Cheers.

[Robin Price]

I'm thinking about attending and either fighting with a modified rattan "staff" or modified bamboo shinai. Probably some knife work aswell.

Anyone else thinking about going?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVg1LMET46c

Well, how did it go? Any video?