Anyone here ever "redone" a bad movie sword fight?

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of taking a moderately well known swordfighting scene in a movie, preferably something that is fairly easy for someone to get a clip of, and perhaps tried to 'redo' it in a more martially sound way, to sort of show that it IS possible?

The idea would be to, as close as possible, mirror camera angles, footing of the fighters, dramatic meaning, some of the pacing, and then simulate the consequences of the fight, but in such a way where, instead of using horrendous techniques, some decent ones are used? Then, I am sure some people would be able to put the two videos side by side, maybe with a few pauses in the middle and some text at the bottom describing a bit of the difference. Hell, I would learn a bit of video editing in order to work on that! I think it would be an enlightening thing to do, to show that, yes, you CAN have the same emotional effect in a fight and the same 'outcome' and not use terrible moves. Does anyone have any comments or thoughts? Would this be plausible? I think that a series of videos like this, perhaps posted to youtube, might be a way to encourage interest in WMA!

P.S., I have thought of posting this before, and if I did a long time ago, I'm sorry to post it again... I don't THINK I posted it though! Also, if this isn't an appropriate thing to talk about in this forum, I would be glad to talk on IM (ICQ, AIM, Yahoo, MSN, etc.) or through private messaging. Thanks!

[Sal Bertucci]

The biggest problem that I see with it is that most movie fights are designed to move plot, and need to take 5min or so, and real life techniques just wouldn't work that way.

I'm coming from a fencing background, but even in one of my longer bouts, where we were really trying to feel each other out, the first touch took about 20 sec.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Well, I think the idea would be to make it "more feasible/sound", not necessarily COMPLETELY correct. Just better. And the idea is to show "you can use better moves that still move plot, and can do it better than the traditional way." ... Which has to be possible, right? Otherwise everyone's complaints about movie fights wouldn't hold water, right? The basic idea is to deconstruct what the director 'wanted' based on the emotions shown, camera angles, sound, etc., and then accomplish that using more feasible moves...

[Gene Tausk]

Well, I think the idea would be to make it "more feasible/sound", not necessarily COMPLETELY correct. Just better. And the idea is to show "you can use better moves that still move plot, and can do it better than the traditional way." ... Which has to be possible, right? Otherwise everyone's complaints about movie fights wouldn't hold water, right? The basic idea is to deconstruct what the director 'wanted' based on the emotions shown, camera angles, sound, etc., and then accomplish that using more feasible moves...

I think you are confusing apples and oranges. Fight choreographers have a job to do and their interests, not to mention the interests of the director, producer, numerous unit directors, etc., may not be to present a historically accurate fight on screen, but one that is exciting to the non-historical fencers in the crowd (who, lets face it, are the vast majority of ticket buyers). They have their goals, just as we have ours.

[Sal Bertucci]

I will admit though that I recently watched the sword fight in the beginning of Season 9 of Stargate SG-1, and thought of some much better, historically accurate way to do things, that would still have moved the plot if they had worked them in.

[JeremyDillon]

I think you are confusing apples and oranges. Fight choreographers have a job to do and their interests, not to mention the interests of the director, producer, numerous unit directors, etc., may not be to present a historically accurate fight on screen, but one that is exciting to the non-historical fencers in the crowd (who, lets face it, are the vast majority of ticket buyers). They have their goals, just as we have ours.

Excellent point, Gene. I think that when a filmmaker has actually gone into a fight scene looking to make it more "real" it's pretty evident. Take the smallsword duel between the two main characters in Ridley Scott's "The Duelists". After they've actually begun fighting, there's only about 5 seconds of actual fight before someone is stabbed! There just isn't a market for that kind of action today. Fortunately, I think we're seeing a gradual return to a more gritty "realism" in today's films (i.e. the change between the latest Bond movie and its predecessor, "Children of Men", the fight scene in "Eastern Promises" etc.), and that could turn into a more mature and realistic approach to movie sword fights were they can be taken more seriously. Honestly, as far as dramatic impact goes, I think a realistic, deadly rapier duel would have far greater *oompf* than the silliness we've seen in films so far.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

I think you are confusing apples and oranges. Fight choreographers have a job to do and their interests, not to mention the interests of the director, producer, numerous unit directors, etc., may not be to present a historically accurate fight on screen, but one that is exciting to the non-historical fencers in the crowd (who, lets face it, are the vast majority of ticket buyers). They have their goals, just as we have ours.

I still don't think my point is getting across. I am not saying that "we should show fight choreographers how to do a realistic fight", I am saying, "we should take a fight as it exists on screen, deconstruct the emotions/plot/excitement level etc. as it exists, and come up with a way to use what we know about fighting to *do a better job* at showing those emotions with more plausibility in the fight, even if it has to be unrealistically long."

[Michael Navas]

I seem to recall from somewhere that the medieval styles had an attack for every defence, and a defence for every attack, which if correct should make it possible to create a really exotic and drawn-out fight using only real techniques, yet with the characters on-screen being so inhumanly skilled as to always be able to counter each other (realistically) where even the best real fighter couldn't.

If there truly is a way to deal with anything, then it should be possible to make a movie fight where the only unrealistic or unauthentic component is the fencers' ability to always get it right, no matter how long the fight lasts and under what circumstances it takes place.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

I seem to recall from somewhere that the medieval styles had an attack for every defence, and a defence for every attack, which if correct should make it possible to create a really exotic and drawn-out fight using only real techniques, yet with the characters on-screen being so inhumanly skilled as to always be able to counter each other (realistically) where even the best real fighter couldn't.

If there truly is a way to deal with anything, then it should be possible to make a movie fight where the only unrealistic or unauthentic component is the fencers' ability to always get it right, no matter how long the fight lasts and under what circumstances it takes place.

That is EXACTLY what I mean! That's what I am trying to say -- figure out if you can make a 'cinematic / follow's the director's vision" fight that still uses martially sound techniques, where it would still look good on film and such. Which is basically what I am suggesting. Say, take a single fight scene from, I don't know, one of the Zorro movies, and 'recreate' it, with a camera filming it, where you are putting the same sort of emotion and camera angles and "plot" in the fight, but using better moves.

[Carey Vaughn]

I think it's a really cool idea. I'm with Jeremy and Gene, and to a huge extent, Jonathan as well. I'm always bored out of my mind at best by most sword fight scenes in movies. I think the problem is that they're so long, laid out and structured. Take the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. I know they're Disney movies and as such have to consider their audience, but still. Those guys just clang away at each other for hours at a time, with no consequences, carrying on arguments in the process. Junk like that totally removes any of the drama and savagery of an actual armed conflict. I think the short brutality of something like Jeremy's example "The Duelists" is much more effective than a long, drawn out edge-on-edge fest. Now the question is, would the general public, in their relative ignorance on the subject, accept such a change in style..? I hope so. If as I believe it would be more dramatic, I can't see how the public would have a problem with it.

Jonathan, I see exactly what you're saying. We're supposing here that the combatants are so experienced and skilled that it's viable for them to actually carry on a five minute fight, and instead of using flashy Hollywood tricks we actually apply WMA techniques. Very cool idea.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

*snip*Take the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. I know they're Disney movies and as such have to consider their audience, but still. Those guys just clang away at each other for hours at a time, with no consequences, carrying on arguments in the process.
*snip*
...We're supposing here that the combatants are so experienced and skilled that it's viable for them to actually carry on a five minute fight, and instead of using flashy Hollywood tricks we actually apply WMA techniques. Very cool idea.

Yea, remember, in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, part of the PURPOSE of the fight is to be a vehicle for the dialogue, which is why they are talking throughout it.. which actually makes the fights in those movies not a bad example, since it is obvious that the fights are supposed to be cinematic and flashy. The problems is recreating, in someone's back yard or studio, a simliar type of 'stage' where people can be stepping onto or off of things in a dramatic way...

[David E K Frischkorn III]

I have redone a martial arts movie

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

I have redone a martial arts movie

Uhhh...? are you kidding? Or are you serious? Sorry, sarcasm isn't coming through very well...?

[Peter Goranov]

One fight in particular has always struck me as fairly realistic, albeit still altered by movie flashiness. The end fight between Rob and Cunningham in Rob Roy. Rob is using a 15th century Claymore and his opponent is using a Smallsword. Can one of the actual practitioners here validate just how realistic it is?

[LafayetteCCurtis]

It's significantly more realistic than most in terms of visceral tension and the phrasing of the fight. I still can't get over the way Liam Neeson held his claymore like a baseball bat, though....