Vadi: all unterhau done with false edge?

[Richard Strey]

Gah. My bad. My question should have been something along the line of

"Where in Liechtenauer's work did you find anything about what edge to generally use with a horizontal cut - outside special techniques. That's something I never gave much attention up to now. Could you please provide a quote, so I can look it up?" - Since you referred to Liechtenauer, I assumed you had a special quote or passage in mind. No intention to make you read an evil German text just for me. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I hope that clears things up. Again, my appologies, Bart. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Bart Walczak]

No problem Richard, I just didn't know what you wanted from me <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, the problem is, that the horizontal cuts ARE NOT described (apart from Zwerhau) in any of the sources prior to 16th century (Liechtenauer tradition that is). The only ones described are diagonal, ober- and unter-, and the text roughly says: there are four basic cuts, two from above, two from below, where all the versetzen come from.

And this is it.

I think it is a serious clue to the rarity of horizontal cuts used in L's system. The only horizontal cut described is a Zwerchau, and masters speak clearly about which edge to use in which zwerchau.

Hope this helps.

Best
Bart

[Randall Pleasant]

Bart Walczak said:
... masters speak clearly about which edge to use in which zwerchau.

Please note that while the masters do say to use the false edge when performing a Zwerchau I don't think they were intending to limit us to only using the false edge. A Zwerchau from the tail guard using the true edge is just as effective (and more powerful) as one with the short edge from the vom Tag guard - the horizontal cut will still displace the adversary's blade and cut him on the head. While body movement and footwork are extreamly important, the focus of any technique has to be on the actions and interplay of the swords. We cannot make situations fit techniques, we most adapt the techniues we have learned to fit the situations in which we find outselves.

[steve hick]

>Please note that while the masters do say to use the false edge when performing a Zwerchau I don't think they were intending to limit us to only using the false edge. A Zwerchau from the tail guard using the true edge is just as effective (and more powerful) as one with the short edge from the vom Tag guard - the horizontal cut will still displace the adversary's blade and cut him on the head. While body movement and footwork are extreamly important, the focus of any technique has to be on the actions and interplay of the swords. We cannot make situations fit techniques, we most adapt the techniues we have learned to fit the situations in which we find outselves.<
But then is it a zwerch, or just a mittle? Is there something about the angles in the false edge r.t. the true that is the essence of what they speaking???

Its not that you can't do it, but what is its tactical purpose?
Steve

[Randall Pleasant]

Steve Hick wrote:
But then is it a zwerch, or just a mittle? Is there something about the angles in the false edge r.t. the true that is the essence of what they speaking???

Steve

A very good question. Being one that naturally takes a general view of everything I tend to define sword techniques in most cases by the interplay between the two blades. In Ringneck the Zwerchhau is a false edge horizontal cut at head level that displaces the adversary's blade by striking it's flat (and possible catching it's edge on the guard) and strikes the adversary on the left side of the head in single time. What is important in this technique is the displacement of the adversary's blade and the cutting of the adversary's head. If speed, power, timing, distance, etc. are held constant then I think the results are the same regardless of which edge is used. To me, a Zwerchhau is nothing more than a high horizontal cut to counter a vertical cut in single time. Which edge to use in a Zwerchhau is related to my body position at the moment I need to throw the cut rather than to any expected effects of the edge used. My sparring experience has shown that the adversary cannot tell the difference. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Easton]

Anyway, going back to the original question - this just prooves another drastic difference between Liechtenauer lineage and Fiore. Fiore clearly states how to do mezzani, and in his Punta Falsa technique clearly just swings the blade horizontally from the right, true-edge leading, at the opponent, before performing a volta to the other side, switching into halfsword and ramming his point into the poor brigand's windpipe.

Matt

[Guest]

Hi Matt,

I think we spoke on this in Dijon or London, but the impression I got was that the mezana false edge cut from the left to right is not as easy to intersect as a true edge cut, You are leading with the point and not lagging with it.

I think you mentioned something on this also but it was first mentioned to me by Bob Charron.

All the best

Col
HEMAC Member
ARMA member (not actually sure I am still)

[ChrisThies]

IMO this is the best thread recently running. I put Vadi's treatise just below Fiore on my book priority list account of Anglo's comments (page 132; note #40). I've since re-evaluated my procrastination and will order Monday once I confirm in stock from publisher. Anyway, my question relates specifically to unterhau's from the back/tail stance: Has anyone done sufficient test cutting (perhaps even using both parallel and tapered edged blades) from the tail guard using both true and false edge to set me straight? I'm just a new guy with JC's 'blue book' and a waster, but my true edge unterhau's from trail have to be performed SLOW for me to maintain what I assume to be proper blade alignment in regards to the motion of my swing. If I try to add some power [=strength + speed] it appears that my blade would not quite strike in proper alignment to my swing for a decent cut (i.e. appears prone to tumbling/deflection), or at the very least the range of my 'effective target area' (?) is severely limited in order to maintain assumed proper alignment. Whereas with the false edge unterhau from the tail guard, once I get over that initial 'hump' of getting the false edge leading, the blade feels like it is in a natural alignment with the swing motion, and the 'effective target area' range would appear to be greater. Do I just need more practice or is there some fundamental technique to tail guard unterhau's which I should be instilling now at the onset of my training in long sword? Also, assuming Vadi experience was probably based upon the tapered edge (poorer cutting) spadone, would proper blade alignment be of even more concern - if not mandatory - as compared to unterhau's with a parallel edged blade?

[Jake_Norwood]

We've spent lots of time cutting from tail and boar's tooth. They're both great, true edge and false, though the true always has more power, and the false has more speed.

Jake

[Guest]

Hello all,
I was just wondering exactly why Fiore strikes from left to right with a false edge exactly...i just want to be clear! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks
Edward Mills

[Brian Hunt]

I may be wrong on this, but I believe it is because he does most of his false edge cuts out of the boar's tooth guard.

take it for what it may be worth.

Brian Hunt.

[Randall Pleasant]

Edward Mills wrote:
I was just wondering exactly why Fiore strikes from left to right with a false edge...?

Edward

I'm not sure exactly what Fiore states as the reason for using the false edge in a left to right unterhau but it probably has to do with not crossing the hands during the cut. If your adversary displaces your left to right false edge unterhau it you are still in a strong position. On the other hand, if your adversary displaces your left to right true edge unterhau you are left in a weak crossed hands positions.

[Bob Charron]

We can't call what Fiore or Vadi do Unterhau. They have their specific names and they have their specific paths. Nor can we call fendente Zornhau, or post breve pflug, etc. They are specific to specific systems in which they are an integral part of that specific system's operation.

Fiore does not say why he cuts riversa mezana with the false edge. He just says that this is the case. I have learned through experience that it has several advantages. 1) It seems to be rooted in the Italian concept of "ridoppio" or "redoubling", as are the false edge sottani of Fiore. It allows you to cut fendente with the true edge and immediately cut back up with sottani without using any extra motion, and it allows you to cut a man dritta mezana with teh true edge and immediately return with a falsa riversa mezana 2) it presents the blade as a threat before it presents the hands as a target 3) it makes better use of the rotational axis and the longer grip of the sword to create tip velocity than turning the hands over, which is also dangerous in zogho stretto.

However, all of those are personal observations and not stated in Fiore. I believe the Medieval method of education sets forth a system which you learn experientially. Therefore all the reasons and mechanics become self-evident after doing exactly as the master says and executing the plays as described.

We must be very careful in trying to generalize. This immediately leads to error as the differences are far too significant.

[Matt Easton]

I agree with everything Bob said and add that for me it is very important that Fiore's cuts leave the point as a threat if the blades become crossed. The false edge mezzani from the left and the sottani go with point advanced, not dragging behind - if you do it with the true edge and get into crossed blades then your point is 'off target'. This statement goes hand in hand with not crossing your wrists - it means the point is always ready to thrust as soon as the blades become crossed.
Fiore has a bunch of techniques for disarming someone by crossing their wrists by rotating the sword (clockwise against a right handed opponent).

Matt

[Jake_Norwood]

Re: terminology

The more we learn about different masters, I have to say "good call." In other words, unterhau are analogous to sotanni, but they aren't always the same thing.

Jake