Testing SCA Stikes on Tatami Mats and Unrestricted Combat.

[Bill Tsafa]

While visiting Texas we tested SCA strikes on Tatami Mats. I thought the following video might be of interest to this group. After the initial results were obvious we decided to test lower quality swords and compare them to higher quality ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRcSr5iA ... hread=6240


While there we also tested SCA fighting against Western Martial Arts. The scenario was blofsfechten (unarmored combat). There were no rules in this fight except don't actually kill the other person. Strikes to the hand, lower leg, grappling and punching were all allowed. The WMA combatant used a longsword using only techniques shown in historic fighting manuals and was a very knowledgeable, skilled and agile fighter.

We found that my lower leg was too hard for him to hit with out getting his head or hip chopped. My hand was too hard to target and it was difficult for him to close in for grappling without getting hit first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_5dPH8Q ... amp;page=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg_qfbTK ... amp;page=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkSV8tAM ... amp;page=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF85xEoc ... amp;page=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj7xzmOG ... amp;page=1

On my part I found that I was overly concerned with keeping my leg safe since I have not sparred too much with shields and the full body as a target. Legs are still at risk but not as much as I anticipated because his head or hip would come into my range before my leg came into his. Adam did get one good shot to my ankle so it is something to watch for.The next time I fight in this setup I would be more aggressive with this new experience knowing my leg is not at much as risk.

There were no hits to my hand. We agreed that the swordhand moves too quickly in and out from the shield. Adam did get one nice shot to my right upper arm when he stepped to the side. I did get two good hits on Adams fingers which in a real fight would have made him drop his sword if not for gauntlets. In both those cases I was aiming for his body and when Adam moved his hands to block his fingers got hit. The majority to good shots that Adam landed on me were to my head just like in SCA fighting.

Note: on the grappling video take a close look .45 seconds into the fight.

I should also add that I have a basic level understanding of longsword within the German system so I was familiar with my opponents longsword techniques. My opponent did not have much experience against SCA fighters. I have always been a proponent of learning as many different styles as possible for just such situations.

Many SCA fighters, including myself, study WMA. However, many in the WMA community consider SCA fighting as some sort of perversion of European Martial Arts and not functional in a setting without rules. This was the basis of the argument that lead to me being challenged to the duel. My opponent is from California and I am from NY. A third person offered to host the event in another corner of the of the country in Texas.

We started out the week by testing the various SCA strikes on tatami to establish their effectiveness. This lead to acknowledgment that they work and that they closely resemble some of the cuts used in the German tradition such as the Zwerchhue. In a contest without rules I then swapped out my rattan sword for a steel blunt and let my training stand on its own. The result was a meeting of the minds and the acknowledgment of those present that SCA fighting is a fully functional system in a setting without rules.

We parted as friends knowing that our fighting systems had more in common then not.

[Sal Bertucci]

To my inexperienced eye I'd like to say a few things.

But before that about the supposed general opinion of SCA; I have talked with several knowledgeable people who have had experience in the past with the SCA, and they all have generally had the opinions stated above. With a few, and I emphasize few, member being the worst of the "know-nothing-know-it-all" types. Now another thing that these people share is that they are all 20+ years older than I am. To say that the SCA is the same now as it was 20 years ago is completely ridiculous as there has been numerous advances in WMA in general. However, first impressions are the strongest.

Now as for your duel. I would have to say just from looking at the two of you that there was an unequal level of skill between the two of you. His timing and intent are way off. I mean just from his positions and footwork that showed right off, and he is much less skilled than several other swordsman that I have personally met, so I feel like that is a weak point for your position.

When it comes to the cuts. I don't have any problems with the shoulder cuts that were shown, however, the wrap cut shown on the mat cut is not the same wrap cut thrown in video 3. You mention that the wrap is similar to the krump. While this may be true in theory, it is not in practice. The wrap shot in video 3 would only have left a marginal cut on an unarmored person, and done nothing against even a gamblson. Now I will agree with you that when thrown as demonstrated with the mat, striking with the farthest part of the blade, you would have sufficient force to do significant damage. Often times with the wrap shot this is not the case as it is generally used once you've pressed shields to the other person. So I see no grounds for you wrap shot at all when it comes to the actual application.

Once again, these are just my opinions, and I certainly don't speak for everyone.

[Bill Tsafa]

Now as for your duel. I would have to say just from looking at the two of you that there was an unequal level of skill between the two of you. His timing and intent are way off. I mean just from his positions and footwork that showed right off, and he is much less skilled than several other swordsman that I have personally met, so I feel like that is a weak point for your position.

I had not met him before we fought. My thoughts from fighting him is he was a skilled and agile. He did an excellent job of maintaining distance. I have fought many longswords and polearms before and I am usually able to close in and control their weapon with my shield much more easily. This guy made me work to get on him and most times I did not have the full control of his weapon I would have liked. Consider that the reason he may be fighting they way he is... is because of the way I am fighting him...

When it comes to the cuts. I don't have any problems with the shoulder cuts that were shown, however, the wrap cut shown on the mat cut is not the same wrap cut thrown in video 3. You mention that the wrap is similar to the krump. While this may be true in theory, it is not in practice.

I think I was comparing the On-side to the Zwerchhue. I then explained that the wrap was a continuation of that motion. I don't think I mentioned the Krump anywhere. But the Krump is similar to a rolling cut I make in a windshield wiper motion. I did not test that on the mats.

The wrap shot in video 3 would only have left a marginal cut on an unarmored person, and done nothing against even a gamblson. Now I will agree with you that when thrown as demonstrated with the mat, striking with the farthest part of the blade, you would have sufficient force to do significant damage. Often times with the wrap shot this is not the case as it is generally used once you've pressed shields to the other person. So I see no grounds for you wrap shot at all when it comes to the actual application.

The wrap shot left a bruise on his back. That would have been a cut if the blade was sharp. I only made three wrap shots throughout the fight because he played a very good distance game. I used the wrap the few times we got in close, that is its practical application against the longsword. Against another shield its practical application is to get around the shield.

[Jay Vail]

Bill, nice that you posted these vids, but they say nothing about the strengths of the SCA way over other approaches. If anything, they say that a sword and shield combination has advantages over an unarmored man with a longsword. I’m not sure that says anything important tho.

Personally, I regret to say that it does not appear to me that your opponent has been training that long or that he has much of a clue what to do in his situation. I played with SCA boys for a while after I started studying WMA and I was consistently able to hit the sword and board guys in the legs, even the thigh on the L side on occasion. I was also able to hit them on their R sides too quite a lot. It was clear, tho, that the shield is a considerable asset if it is assumed the longswordsman is unarmored.

What I suggest you do is drop the shield and see what happens between the single sword vs longsword. Or go at him with a longsword of your own.

As to the famous "wrap shot," haven't you ever wondered why no historical source mentions such a blow? If it had been effective in a real combat, you'd think it would show up in at least one manual. There are descriptions of false edge blows with the one-hand sword, but not that one. That should tell you something, shouldn't it?

[Jay Vail]

Against another shield its practical application is to get around the shield.

Yes, that's how I've seen it used. However, seems to me that this application is a false one for the simple reason that SCA does not allow offensive use of the shield. While we have no manuals on large shield fighting (except for advise for use of the shield in judicial duals), there are some people (notably the Hammaborg boys and Stephan Hand) who have gone to considerable lengths to recreate sword and shield fighting based at least in part of Talhoffer's plates dealing with the judicial dual. Their research indicates that the shield is not a board to hide behind, SCA's general approach, but a lively and effective offensive weapon in its own right. In their work, you never see guys standing shield to shield trading blows, where the wrap shot comes into its own (if even has an "own").

Here is an example of what Hammaborg is doing. There is a lot more of this sort of stuff posted. Check it out. It is pretty interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8SRaa33otU

[Sal Bertucci]

I think I was comparing the On-side to the Zwerchhue. I then explained that the wrap was a continuation of that motion. I don't think I mentioned the Krump anywhere. But the Krump is similar to a rolling cut I make in a windshield wiper motion. I did not test that on the mats.

My bad, for some reason I though krump, but it was really zwerch. I got that mixed up. Insert correct word please. Sorry about that.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hey Bill, how's it going man? This is at first going to sound like I am trying to be a jerk to you, but I am not, it's clear that you are putting alot of effort into what you are doing here, so I give you props for that...but here's the rest:

firstly, many folks that do this kind of thing want to try and scientifically prove what exactly? Your attempting to show that the SCA style fighting is effective? That it "could" work? That it does "work"? I guess in terms of a fight, sure anything could potentially mechanically work given you are standing there and hitting a post with some tires stuck on it, or a rolled up mat, who cares..?

The bottom line is that fighting and combat are not scientifc, it's not based on absolutes, there's always too many factors to make this kind of study mean anything. Factors like luck, strength, ability, age, etc..etc..all that weighs in..

Especially ability of those involved, overall those fights or "duels" that you showed really are bad..really bad and do not capture any kind of real combat expirence. They are exactly what they look like, two guys with diffrent gear walking around each other playing sword tag.. not showing any real understanding of combat or any particular skills in WMA.

What...you say? The guy knows how to move from guard to guard, he is quick when delivering cuts..etc..etc..yes, maybe so but does he know when to deliver those cuts, does he know why he is moving from guard to guard- nope sorry man, he does not and indeed does so for all the wrong reasons.

Just because someone knows what a schrank is does not mean they know when to employ it, or how it's used especially, when there is some semblence of combat being employed.

In this "scientific example" you "assume blossfecthen" but wear all sorts of protection...?

Nope, this is the exact problem with much of the stuff you have done in the past Bill, you assume something and then carry on destroying that assumption. You can't assume blossfecthen, then wear close to full protection, without changing the core of what you do, how you go about doing it and for what reasons those things are done.

You guys would have been better off just "assuming harnishfecthen" and carrying on that way, the results would have been better.

This example is really something that from an ARMA point of view is exactly what you should not do, which is this:

1-make false assumptions that color the whole core of what you are seeking to discover

2-use inferior training methods to discover these assumptions, then delude yourself into believing the results are valid

3-compare two seperate activities which by the very nature, one of the activities could not hope to be ever copied..

Man, I could go on and on, but in the end Bill, let's for arguments sake say that you are right and have in the space of a few years training with some reproductions and fooling around with the SCA,-(none of which is actual combat) - have discovered a better way to fight than our historical ancestors? Is that what you are trying to say..?

Like I said it's clear that you are for sure, putting alot of effort into what you did here, so try not to take what I say here as disrespect, I just marvel at the amount of effort that's being placed here.- Thanks for posting this as a good example to our folks of what not to do- AP

[Bill Tsafa]

What I suggest you do is drop the shield and see what happens between the single sword vs longsword. Or go at him with a longsword of your own.

As to the famous "wrap shot," haven't you ever wondered why no historical source mentions such a blow? If it had been effective in a real combat, you'd think it would show up in at least one manual. There are descriptions of false edge blows with the one-hand sword, but not that one. That should tell you something, shouldn't it?

We did fight side-sword vs side-sword and came out about 50-50. When we fought longsword vs longsword he beat me decisively. I have a good basic understanding of the German system so I do not think I was a walk over, I think the guy is pretty good. Anyone can point to my opponent and say he is doing this or that wrong... but what may not be so apparent is what I did to make him act a certain way. Furthermore, I have been fighting in the SCA for only two years so I rank pretty low as a fighter.

With regard to the wrap shot I believe it is mentioned in "Lecküchner's Messerfechten". I believe it is referred to "Sturzhau" (Plunging Stroke) also "Winckerhau". I think it is the sixth play of sword and buckler.

Aaron Pynenberg- I won't quote everything you said because it will take up the whole post but you asked a very important question. What is the purpose of all this.... ?

The purpose of all this was to take SCA fighting and test in in an environment without any rules and see how it stands up. The SCA prohibits strikes to the lowlegs, hands and grappling. It has been argued that if these three things were allowed and steel blunts were used the system of fighting would not be functional. I was curious enough to travel to Texas from NY to find out the answer. Perhaps it is not the final answer and I very interested in exploring this further. I can't do any more traveling for a while but if anyone can come to the NYC area I would be very interested in studying this further.

With regard to the armor I don't see how it can possibly be an issue. A cut to my fencing mask is a cut to my head. A cut to my shoulder plate is a cut to my shoulder. A cut to my leg armor is a cut to the leg. My opponent opted to not wear any armor except for knee and elbow pads, a shoulder pad, a cup and a fencing mask with a cover for the back of the head. Other then that he as wearing a T-shirst and jeans.

[Brian Hunt]

With regard to the wrap shot I believe it is mentioned in "Lecküchner's Messerfechten". I believe it is referred to "Sturzhau" (Plunging Stroke) also "Winckerhau". I think it is the sixth play of sword and buckler.

I don't have time to go into the mechanics of it tonight, but these two strikes are not a SCA wrap shot.

all the best.

Brian Hunt.

[Ryan Woo]

Bill,

Let's just say you're right about all those things you have said for the sake of the argument.

I only have one question.

Do you in all honesty believe that the person you, for lack of better words, had fun with has a minimally adequate level of skill in the longsword that he can represent the WMA community as a whole such that you can conclude anything based on your experience with him?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Bill, nice that you posted these vids, but they say nothing about the strengths of the SCA way over other approaches. If anything, they say that a sword and shield combination has advantages over an unarmored man with a longsword. I’m not sure that says anything important tho.

Personally, I regret to say that it does not appear to me that your opponent has been training that long or that he has much of a clue what to do in his situation. I played with SCA boys for a while after I started studying WMA and I was consistently able to hit the sword and board guys in the legs, even the thigh on the L side on occasion. I was also able to hit them on their R sides too quite a lot. It was clear, tho, that the shield is a considerable asset if it is assumed the longswordsman is unarmored.

What I suggest you do is drop the shield and see what happens between the single sword vs longsword. Or go at him with a longsword of your own.

As to the famous "wrap shot," haven't you ever wondered why no historical source mentions such a blow? If it had been effective in a real combat, you'd think it would show up in at least one manual. There are descriptions of false edge blows with the one-hand sword, but not that one. That should tell you something, shouldn't it?

I have actually seen one example of what could be interpreted as the infamous SCA "wrap shot" in a manual. It is Meyer's dusack section. I can give you the quote and the woodcut reference if you need it. That said, Meyer's method differs markedly (to put it mildly) from my understanding of the SCA rule structure for fighting, so I wouldn't read too much into that.

Bill,

I would also like to compliment the effort you are willing to put into this and put yourself out there for critique. By my understanding, the SCA method differs from WMA in two respects.

Firstly, there are the rule restrictions. It was nice to see in the videos you guys stepping outside that framework.

Secondly, but primarily, are the basis for the techniques. As you well know, a WMA curriculum starts from the manuals as the source and trains from that. We try as much as possible not just make things up. My current understanding of the SCA method is that it is not historically sourced from the manuals, but rather an amalgamation of modern experiences from SCA fighters.

Finally, the videos showed good effort, but also showed stylistically more the advantage of a sword and shield or sword and buckler guy against a longsword who can't effectively face that style than anything else. There are by my current understanding two ways to do that:

1. use the range advantage in the longsword. It looked like your opponent did a decent job of trying to maintain the range.

2. Ignore the shield and go after the sword. A lot of of the kills were you getting his sword tangled up in your shield while you ran him down into a good range for your sword. A sound tactic, but also one well within the WMA curriculum.

If you do something like this again I would be curious to see you use like weapons (longsword vs. longsword, S&B vs. S&B, or rapier vs. rapier) with a pure WMA fighter against an SCA guy of similar skill level.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Bill- no... you are missing the most basic point, the point that colors everything you have done in this presentation:

"assuming blossfechten"= then wearing the gear..you guys don't get it, does not matter if you wear only one elbow pad, just because you have the elbow pad on, you move and strike diffrently then if you did not have it on.

That's your first mistake then there's a bunch more but this one here is the main problem with your work..you do not understand or account for this issue..

It's a simple concept but when you take that idea then extrapolate that out throught the whole process it colors everything.

[Randall Pleasant]

I have actually seen one example of what could be interpreted as the infamous SCA "wrap shot" in a manual. It is Meyer's dusack section.

Jaron

Absolutely not!

The SCA wrap shot is a completely unhistorical strike developed within the SCA during the last 40 years that is used to hit someone in the back of the head while standing nose to nose. That it might on rare occasion hit with the false edge does not make it historical. That it might share some bio-mechanical similarity to a historical strike does not make it historical. Remember that the SCA uses round blades. In actual practice a wrap shots mostly hit with the flat of the blade, not the false edge! If hitting with the false edge was the only criteria that determine what a strike is then the Zwerchhau and the Schielhau would be the same cut, but they are not. Thus "hitting with the false edge" is not what makes these cuts. By this same standard, having some possibility of hitting with the false edge does not in any way make a Wrap Shot a historical strike. The Wrap Shot is what it is...a non-historical creation of the SCA. The only historical strikes are those written about by the historical masters - that is an absolute!

[Bill Tsafa]

The purpose of this topic is not intended to argue that SCA fighting is historical... it is intended to demonstrate that it is functional. From that point it may be argued that ancient and medieval people were just as smart and crafty as we are today and likely would have thought of and used a sword in any way that works.

[BRIAN.FELL]

Bill,

Please dont take offense.. I have a SCA heavy fighter background (1.5 years) but switched many years ago (3.5) to ARMA and never looked back......never

Your opponent may be trained in WMA but def.. not ARMA.. his intent, range, choice of attacks, and guard positions are at most... elementary...

One thing most SCA fighters are good at is multiple attacks on after another; which your oppenant looks like he was waiting for you to acknoledge each stike he was throwing and not focusing on parrying and attacking open areas (90% of his strikes landed on the left side of your shield!!!) I saw maybe three strikes from him to an open area. He was almost placing the sowrd onto your shield and then you are simply hitting him in the side... YES IT DID WORK AGAINST HIM... and it worked well... I personally have never purposlly cut at a shield multiple times and wait for my oppenant to strike my open side... (good job on striking his opening.. he should have done the same.)

as for a leg stike.. if done properly there is no chance (based on angle and laws of geometry) that you would be able to strike his head... ie Das Gayszlen


With the "wrap around" strike... this should never be obtainable on someone with high skill with a long sword trained in WMA.. by the time you closed him the off line hand should already be wrapping and ringen should be happening and thus not allowing any "wrap around shot".. and the shield works well to defend against any close thruts from the longsword. again ringen has already commenced.

there have been more than one time that I almost go to a "wrap around" shot, but the first time I did it Matt Bryant put a sword in my stomach!!!! never tried it again.. (now daggers work great into the back at close range!!!!)

The purpose of this topic is not intended to argue that SCA fighting is historical... it is intended to demonstrate that it is functional. From that point it may be argued that ancient and medieval people were just as smart and crafty as we are today and likely would have thought of and used a sword in any way that works

SCA training as a sport (it is a sport such as boxing)... could be applied to a modern day combat or personal combat senerio????.. ie: somone breaking into your house and all you have is a baseball bat ... against an untrained/slightley trained oppenant you will have an advantage of timing distance and initiative.. witch incresaes you chance of survival.

Than again a shotgun or pistol work wonders!!!! (thank God I live in Texas!!! Concealed Handgun all the way!!)

Now lets look at another side...

Fighting someone who is as skilled as some here in ARMA/ other WMA groups; with just training from SCA in an earnest "you are going to die" situation, I believe that the SCA guy is going down and in a hurry at that..

but again.. nice job showing that SCA stikes "could" be used as a cut... but most of the fighters (99.9%) in SCA are not concerned at the least with edge alignment. This again ties into the sport mentallity and not the actuall art mentallity.. Yeah you could be good at hitting someone but not acctually cutting them..
I will atleast give it to you that you made an attempt to keep your alignment on strikes, but your strikes were about 50/50 good alignment to questionable....