1Hander, 2Hander and Dual Weld

[Jerrit Reed]

Would you have different guards for one hander, 2 hander and dual weld? Or basically the guards are just generalized and could be used for either. If there is a list of say the Vom Tag can only be used with 2 hander weapon, if someone could provide a list in a reply or a link.

Thank you

[Jerrit Reed]

To add some more in that I have forgot. Of course the 1 hander and sheild. Also for dual welding, would you mix and macth some of the guards? Example, one hand could be the Alber and the other could be the roof.

[Sal Bertucci]

I'm just starting in this, but it seems to me that mechanically, all of the stances would work (with modification) for any two edged sword. The appropriateness of the stances might decrease as you use them in real life.

You mentioned dual wielding. Could you specify? The reason I ask is that most people I know use the term for wielding two swords. It tends to be used in a most historically inaccurate way, and the more I learn about it the more it bothers me. Anyway, just asking.

[Patrick Hardin]

Guards for one-handed and two-handed weapons are the same. A guard position is simply a point of motion, or a point from which motion will begin. If one is fighting with a weapon, the points of motion will still be the same. You don't really move differently for each different weapon. Fighting is not an uber-categorized affair with different motions and different actions for each weapon, so that, for example, if you have trained with a longsword and then try to use a staff, you would be helpless. That's not the case at all. If you know how to fight, you can pick up any weapon and still fight the same. Or fight without a weapon. It's really very simple.

As for what you refer to as "dual wield," if you are referring to wielding two cutting swords, one in each hand, there is no historical precedent for this. And speaking from experience, attempting such a thing makes very little sense. I know the thought of using two swords at once sounds as if one's effectiveness would be doubled, but in fact one's effectiveness would be cut in half, if not eliminated. It's simply too awkward to try to use two cutting swords in conjunction. There is some historical precedent for using a pair of rapiers in conjunction, and there is manual material covering this, but even so, a pair of rapiers is generally inferior to rapier and dagger.

Hope this helps,

Patrick H.

[Sam Nankivell]

As for what you refer to as "dual wield," if you are referring to wielding two cutting swords, one in each hand, there is no historical precedent for this. And speaking from experience, attempting such a thing makes very little sense. I know the thought of using two swords at once sounds as if one's effectiveness would be doubled, but in fact one's effectiveness would be cut in half, if not eliminated. It's simply too awkward to try to use two cutting swords in conjunction. There is some historical precedent for using a pair of rapiers in conjunction, and there is manual material covering this, but even so, a pair of rapiers is generally inferior to rapier and dagger.

Hope this helps,

Patrick H.

Actually, there is some historical precedent for wielding two cutting blades at once, but it isn't very large. Marozzo, an author from the Bolognese school that employed a cut and thrust styled sword, mentions dual wielding two swords, but does not go into depth on the subject. Lovino, Di Grassi and Agrippa (all of whom are late cut and thrust masters who are beginning to lean more towards "rapier") also mention dual wielding swords, but also gloss over it quite quickly.

Actually, when you take a look at the manuals, no true "rapier" master (Fabris, Thibault, Capo Ferro, Alfieri etc...) ever mentions using two rapiers at once, it is in fact only ever used by cut and thrust masters. What is true though is that the combination of two cut and thrust swords is not very popular or effective, hence why it is only shown as an interesting exercise in swordsmanship rather than an everyday practical method like rapier and dagger or cut and thrust sword and dagger/buckler.

Here is a picture from Marozzo's manual showing the use of two swords:

[Patrick Hardin]

My bad. I knew the double-sword thing was pretty much inferior, and so I never looked into it much. I always assumed that the manual material was on the "case of rapiers." I gotta remember to never shoot my mouth off without the scholarship to back it up!

[CalebChow]

For two swords of equal size, I think looking into Asian arts would probably be a bit easier to find stuff on.

Dual swords are much more commonly seen in China and maybe even the Middle East, with dual daos or shamshirs. A friend of mine (who I will hopefully get to spar with in two days) specializes in dual Chinese daos...I'll see what he knows.

[Stacy Clifford]

Actually Di Grassi never says that using two swords is in any way inferior, it can be very nasty if done right the way he describes it. The hitch is that he specifically states that you shouldn't even try this unless you are equally good at using the sword in either hand, otherwise it won't work out well for you.

There are also used nowadays, as well in the schools, as in the lists, two Swords or Rapiers, admitted and approved both of Princes, and of Professors of this Art, for honorable and knightly weapons, although they be not used in the wars. Wherefore I shall not vary from my purpose, if I reason also have these, as far as is agreeable to true Art. To him that would handle these weapons, it is necessary that he can as well manage the left hand as the right, which thing shall be (if not necessary) yet most profitable in every other kind of weapon. But in these principally he is to resolve himself, that he can do no good, without that kind of nimbleness and dexterity. For seeing they are two weapons, & yet of one selfsame kind, they ought equally and indifferently to be handled, the one performing that which the other does, & every of these being apt as well to strike as defend. And therefore a man ought to accustom his body, arms and hands as well to strike as defend. And he that is not much practiced and exercised therein ought not to make profession of this Art: for he shall find himself to be utterly deceived.

From that I gather that two swords can still be an effective combination, but the bar for skillful with it is set much higher. Do a vigorous florysh and a few cut-countercut exercises with a cut & thrust sword first right-handed and then left-handed and you'll see why he says that really fast. Controlling a sword with your off hand is much more difficult than controlling a dagger. This goes back to my theory that a lot of times the masters tell you not to do certain things not because they can't be done or won't ever work, but because they are too risky and unreliable except at the very highest levels of skill. Dead students are bad for the reputation and the pocketbook.

[Stacy Clifford]

By the way, the original English translation of Di Grassi does use the word rapier a lot and titles that section "Case of Rapiers", but I believe in the original Italian the word is just spada, or sword, in most instances. And in this case he does specifically state "two Swords or Rapiers".

[Benjamin Parker]

So its possible to use two greatswords? what about scimitars?

[Stacy Clifford]

Important key phrase in the passage above: "But in these principally he is to resolve himself, that he can do no good, without that kind of nimbleness and dexterity."

If you can achieve nimbleness and dexterity using a greatsword in one hand on either side, then sure, it's theoretically possible. Since that's not what greatswords were designed for though, it ain't likely. Di Grassi's focus is pretty heavily on thrusting and I don't think curved swords would be very effective with his method.

[Jerrit Reed]

You mentioned dual wielding. Could you specify? The reason I ask is that most people I know use the term for wielding two swords. It tends to be used in a most historically inaccurate way, and the more I learn about it the more it bothers me. Anyway, just asking.

That is what I have always knew it to be. I have no idea what else to call it =(

[Sal Bertucci]

That's what I thought, but I didn't want to get on my soap box if we weren't talking about the same thing. Now all these Knowledgeable people have taken all the fun.

[Jerrit Reed]

Sorry I believe the proper use of the world dual weld should be Florentine. I assume that Florentine would have different guards than the 2 hander and 1 hander weapons. If so, what are those different guards because I could not find them online. If there is not simply any guards, if someone could make up some that would be awesome. Again I'd like to incorporate these different guards for an mmorpg idea I have =D I'd like to get it right!

[Stacy Clifford]

I've heard the term "Florentine" used in RPGs before to refer to using two swords, but I have no idea what the source of that terminology is or whether it has any historical validity at all. As I said, the English version of Di Grassi simply calls it a "case of rapiers" (or swords, depending on your reading of Italian).

As for the guards, sorry to break it to you, but they aren't unique. Di Grassi has three guards for use with a single weapon: high, broad, and low. When using two weapons he simply holds each weapon in one of those three guards in various combinations, such as high and low, low and low, broad and high, etc. The combinations don't have names. Other masters may have a wider variety of possible guard combos, but they are still based on the same idea. There is a "castle guard" (crossed swords in an X) for defense against blows, which is often used with sword and dagger in many different manuals, but this is a response to an attack, not a fighting posture you start from. Think of fighting with two swords as fighting with a sword and a really big dagger, only you can switch which one functions as the sword and which as the dagger. Unless both are thrusting, trying to use both in the sword role at the same time has an uncomfortably high probability of getting you tangled up with yourself and killed.