Slashing ability of very tapered blades?

[CalebChow]

http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

Here there's a picture of Shane with a very tapered sword, apparently ideal for thrusting and chainmail piercing.

Despite the pointyness of the tapering blade, I'd imagine that period swords of this type would still have sharp edges, so I'm wondering: how effective are such swords in slashing?

Has anyone done test cuts by any chance?

[Stacy Clifford]

Quite a few of our guys have an Albion Talhoffer (very similar to Shane's sword in the picture) and have test cut with it. Yes it does still have edges and it will still cut flesh, but because it doesn't have as much mass at the tip as a sword like the Albion Baron, it doesn't deliver the same amount of impact and won't bite as deep. It will still cut down to the bone, it just might not cut through the bone. It'll take some chips out though.

[s_taillebois]

The other aspect is that alignment is much more critical. Coming from positions like crown with the bastard type blade edge alignment can be that much more of a problem. In some cases there can be even be some apparent twisting at the tip. This problem varies a bit from maker to maker.

Quite effective for slashing, but as M. Clifford noted deeper cutting is much less likely. With some of the lighter forms of bastard blades, anything past the midway point on the blade lacks the mass and so momentum to cut all that deeply. For these blades the weak of the blade is quite literal.

At least that's what I've noticed in test cutting in various media.

That said, on many of these forms the point of balance is closer to the hilt (than say something more like a falchion) so these tapered types can be very fast for moving to other angles of attack or when winding from bind. Fractionally so, but there does seem to be a difference.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

Here there's a picture of Shane with a very tapered sword, apparently ideal for thrusting and chainmail piercing.

Despite the pointyness of the tapering blade, I'd imagine that period swords of this type would still have sharp edges, so I'm wondering: how effective are such swords in slashing?

Has anyone done test cuts by any chance?

Check this out. Click on table of contents, then go down to 6.0, spear and sword, etc. Then, three clicks down from the first plate: off with your head! Note the tapering blade. Yes, depending on the target, they'll take you apart.

http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/ta ... rkHome.htm

-B.

[Rod-Thornton]

Hey Caleb. I bought an Albion Mercenary for my sharp and it is either a type 15 or a type 18 (I believe).... This blade does not cut as well as my (much broader) Arbedo sharp, but it does cut. Thrusting with it is very easy on tougher targets and I believe it represents the later period trend to go to the half sword for punching through partial harness or rings. Training with Shane and Matt (before he moved) gave me some interesting insights on just how very effective armor is and why the blades shifted to such tapers.

But make no mistake, as John's articles in the library indicate, all blades are a compromise of function and form follows that function. To that point (no pun intended) the mercenary does NOT cut as well as your typical longsword such as the blunted "Lichtenauer" form from Albion, and that has been reflected on pool noodles, jugs of water, tatami matts, various fruits & vegetables, and at least one roast. But having said that, all targets would still have been goners from the cuts.

Hope that answers ya'.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

Here there's a picture of Shane with a very tapered sword, apparently ideal for thrusting and chainmail piercing.

Despite the pointyness of the tapering blade, I'd imagine that period swords of this type would still have sharp edges, so I'm wondering: how effective are such swords in slashing?

Has anyone done test cuts by any chance?

[Shane Smith]

I actually have test cut with the sword in that picture. It was an atrocious cutter Here is a review I wrote on it a few years back; http://www.myarmoury.com/review_dt2143.html

The closest sharp I have to that now is my wifes Sempach. It is a decent cutter on all targets save the toughest as Rod says of his Mercenary (the Mercenary is a superior cutter in this case) but it is no match for my old-style Crecy or even my custom DT5143 Greatsword. I do have a Brescia Spadona that I got right after twisting my knee so I haven't cut with it yet. I expect modest, but acceptable results of it.

This three hundred Deltin is still my favorite piece...because thanks to Art Elwell, there is no other like it;




Here's my Crecy in action;

[CalebChow]

Thanks for the responses everyone!

I've had some experience swinging an Albion Crecy around--it really is a marvel to behold.

A follow-up question, though....

Since the slashing ability with such tapered swords is significantly weaker, would slashes into flesh/bone with such swords result in the blade getting stuck more than with wider blades?

[Shane Smith]

That's an interesting question. I've never tried that out with a sword nor read a comparitive analasys. I've stuck plenty of blades in leather wrapped shield rims before and in heavy cradboard tubes, but I've never paid attention to how hard various cross-sectional profiles were to withdraw. Perhaps one of our Scholars who has will have some input on that?

I've never given much though to it but you know, that sounds like something we all should know a bit about. Good question. I hope someone can answer. If not, I'll do some testing in a few weeks when I am more fit to do so and report back.

[s_taillebois]

Concerning the cutting of such blades and getting stuck, because of the narrowness of the weak of the blade likely not too big of a problem. Pulling it back would have little resistance. From thrusts into various media, getting stuck doesn't seem to be an issue with the bastard type blade, and on a cut these don't seem to go as deeply anyway or there does seem to be a tendency to glance off from the tip rather than deeply biting into a hard material.

On the deepness of cuts, when these weapons were in use it wouldn't been that critical (to a degree). If the weapon could cut deeply enough to disable the opponent that was enough, and areas such as hands are smaller joints not presenting that much (assumed) resistance. In test cuttings with the bastard sword the damage it does would be of a nature that on a person he would be down, and very sick, even if the whole limb remained attached.

At fights such as Towton in a line melee once someone was down all they could hope for was their side would not be pushed back. If their side was pushed back it was a relatively common practice for the enemies 2-3 ranks to finish off the obviously wounded as they passed towards the main fight.
It appears some of the dead found at Towton may have died in that manner being left behind in the rout of their comrades who could move faster.

So a tapered blade cutting as deep as a broader form wouldn't have mattered all that much as most of the people afflicted by these weapons would still have died. And unless the wounded was a man of worth, survival was improbable. A French commander at Agincourt (the late arrival) was captured, escaped a burning barn, was recaptured and murdered because he wasn't wearing his arms and so was not recognized as a 'man of worth' when Henry ordered prisoners and wounded be finished off...

And even if one was wounded and did survive, the treatments of the time would often finish the job. They could do little for deep thrusts except cover the surface wound with gelled down rabbit skin and hemlock or opium's, or to cauterize it. On any large surface wound the treatment probably ensured infection and eventual necrosis and death.

[Stacy Clifford]

Less surface area = less friction, so a narrower blade should be easier to withdraw once it becomes lodged in hard material, but since it has less mass and momentum for penetration, I think it would be less likely to get lodged in the first place. I'd be interested to see some tests of a narrow blade against a thick gambeson to see how effective its cutting ability really was against unarmored opponents. I don't doubt its thrusting ability.

[s_taillebois]

Which perhaps is a contributory element to the rise in preference for these type of blades concurrent with the improvements in plate armor. When half warding or finding the joints less likely the blade would be bound up and and the thrust remained effective.

Another factor may have been class preference. Heavy bladed weapons such as falchions (and variations thereof) were sometimes used for executions and there were the variants for the slaughter of animals. For example the Conyers looks more to be the latter although it may have been used on some battlefield. But the dragon reference associated with that weapon makes that a little less likely... killing dragons was a reference to the knightly class controlling their various lusts. Just as likely the Conyers was a toss a away weapon given to the church when some knight was giving thanks for not falling into temptation.

And as status oriented as the armor plated aristocrats were, it may have effected their choice of weaponry. As today that lingering attitude may effect what we chose to study via arma or other like groups. For example 'Bows and bills' seem to be uncommon items to study, although these were the predominant weapon of the lower English orders. So I'd wonder if a social preference or effect may have had some influence on some of the armor plated aristocracy in preferring the bastard type sword? This of course along with its obvious utility as a thrusting weapon. And being somewhat easier to carry about it did seem to be popular in places where the gentry could raise their own militias, showing up in a few late medieval early Renn. English and German prints.

Cutting, the gambeson I've not tried would be an interesting experiment.

[Jay Vail]

Nice form, Shane.

[Chris Ouellet]

Cutting, the gambeson I've not tried would be an interesting experiment.

Gambeson isn't quite Jack but here are some Jack cutting tests:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

[s_taillebois]

M. Ouellet

Interesting the rondel did so poorly and a somewhat unexpected result into the jack.

And strange since Bodkin daggers (being a point weapon) were notorious for punching through roughly the court clothiers equivalent of a jack.

The cutting ability of the tapered blade being somewhat limited not surprising as these are multi-function weapons.

But in actual use, against unarmored enemies, it may have been various cuts were a secondary tactic meant to disable the opponent allowing the killing thrusts to be made more effectively. There's an old English painting of a murdered cleric who seemed to have been killed in that manner, 3-4 disabling cuts into the upper legs and numerous thrusts into the thoracic area. Forget the name of the cleric or the painting but the styles sometime slightly after the wars of the roses period.

[Stacy Clifford]

Those results are interesting and the tests seem pretty well done (too bad there's no video), but I'm curious when cutting the jack if he used different types of cuts with the longswords vs. the katana. I would expect a slicing cut to do more damage to thick fabric than a chop. While chopping may be a more natural motion with the longsword, it's certainly still capable of a good schnitt and I think could do more damage than what occurred in the tests if used that way. A good swordsman adjusts his attack to his target after all. Would've also been interesting to see the katana vs. the maille.